2909 1 2 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION 3 4 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 5 Volume 12 6 7 Including List of Participants 8 9 10 11 Hearing 12 13 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 14 15 Presiding: 16 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair 17 Kathi Kinew 18 Harvey Nepinak 19 Robert Mayer 20 Terry Sargeant 21 22 Monday, March 22, 2004 23 St. Lawrence Hall 24 Thompson, Manitoba 25 2910 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Clean Environment Commission: 4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman 5 Terry Sargeant Member 6 Harvey Nepinak Member 7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member 8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission 9 Rory Grewar Staff 10 CEC Advisors: 11 Mel Falk 12 Dave Farlinger 13 Jack Scriven 14 Jim Sandison 15 Jean McClellan 16 Brent McLean 17 Kyla Gibson 18 19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation: 20 Chief Jerry Primrose 21 Elvis Thomas 22 Campbell MacInnes 23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux 24 25 2911 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Manitoba Conservation: 4 Larry Strachan 5 6 Manitoba Hydro/NCN: 7 Doug Bedford, Counsel 8 Bob Adkins, Counsel 9 Marvin Shaffer 10 Ed Wojczynski 11 Ken Adams 12 Carolyn Wray 13 Ron Mazur 14 Lloyd Kuczek 15 Cam Osler 16 Stuart Davies 17 David Hicks 18 Elizabeth Hicks 19 George Rempel 20 David Cormie 21 Alex Fleming 22 Marvin Shaffer 23 Blair McMahon 24 25 2912 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 4 5 Presenters: 6 Bob Wall - Thompson Chamber of Commerce 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2913 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 3 Number Page 4 5 OTH 1004: Thompson Chamber of 6 Commerce presentation to the 7 Manitoba Clean Environment 8 Commission Wuskwatim Generation 9 and Transmission Project 3064 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2914 1 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS 2 3 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE 4 5 6 7 8 NO UNDERTAKINGS GIVEN 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2915 1 MONDAY, MARCH 22, 2004 2 Upon commencing at 1:06 p.m. 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Ladies and 5 gentlemen, we shall begin. And as we have in other 6 instances, I will call upon Elder Sam Dysart to come 7 and launch the afternoon with a prayer. 8 MR. DYSART: Thank you. I'm very glad to be 9 here and I see a lot of familiar faces from back 10 home. I hope we have a good meeting today and going 11 on forward to the next day and to The Pas. Thank 12 you. Let us pray. You can pray with me in your own 13 language. God bless you and may God heal you. 14 15 (PRAYER) 16 17 THE CHAIRMAN: If you, for a moment, just stay 18 in the same frame of mind, I will read a little poem 19 which is also a prayer which I read today in the 20 Grassroots News of March 10th. It's called "Oh Great 21 Spirit." 22 "Oh Great Spirit of our ancestors, I 23 raise my pipe to you, to your 24 messengers, the four winds, and to 25 Mother Earth who provides for your 2916 1 children. Give us the wisdom to teach 2 our children to love, to respect and 3 to be kind to each other so that they 4 may grow with peace in mind. Let us 5 learn to share all good things that 6 you provide for us on this earth." 7 And it was written by Brian Norman. 8 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We 9 appreciate this opportunity, and when I say we, I'm 10 referring to the Clean Environment Commission, to 11 meet with you in Thompson. This community, along 12 with the community of Nelson House, are the two 13 closest communities to the proposed projects and 14 therefore, the two communities will be most directly 15 affected for good, we hope, and will also experience 16 the not so good effects if there are any which will 17 result from this project which is being proposed by 18 Manitoba Hydro and Nisichawayasihk. 19 I wish to thank you for your presence here 20 today in such large numbers. And I thank you in 21 advance for the contribution you will bring to this 22 process. So that we, as commissioners, may be better 23 able to understand the projects that are being 24 proposed so that we can also get a better grasp of 25 your views and hopefully you will be better 2917 1 understanding as well. And of course we are looking 2 forward to all enlightenment that we can derive from 3 this process so that we may make wise recommendations 4 to the Minister, decisions that will go towards the 5 betterment of First Nations of Manitoba and all 6 people of Manitoba. 7 My name is Gerard Lecuyer. I am a member of 8 the Manitoba Clean Environment Commission and the 9 Panel Chairperson for the Commission's Wuskwatim 10 Generation and Transmission Projects review. 11 With me today are four other Commissioners 12 serving on this Panel, Ms. Kathi Avery Kinew, Mr. 13 Robert Mayer, Mr. Terry Sargeant, Mr. Harvey Nepinak 14 at the end of the table. Mr. Sargeant here, as you 15 may have heard, has been recently appointed as the 16 new Chairperson of the Clean Environment Commission. 17 And in addition to the Panel today, I would 18 like to introduce the staff and advisors who are 19 assisting us with this review including the Secretary 20 of the Commission Mr. Rory Grewar over there. And if 21 you have any technical questions, you may ask Mr. 22 Grewar. And as well, the Commission Administrative 23 Secretary, Ms. Joyce Mueller who I presume is at the 24 table in the back. 25 The Commission Counsel, Mr. Doug Abra of the 2918 1 firm Hill Abra and Dewar. And from the technical 2 advisory team as well Ms. Jean McLellan. I think 3 she's in the back here from Price Waterhouse Coopers. 4 Mr. Dave Farlinger in the back as well from Energy 5 Consultants International and Mr. Mel Falk from Falk 6 Environmental. 7 Before continuing, I would like to explain 8 that the Manitoba Clean Environment Commission is an 9 arm's length provincial agency that encourages and 10 facilitates public involvement in environmental 11 matters and offers advice and recommendations to 12 government. 13 The Commission exercises its mandate through 14 public hearings, investigations, mediation and 15 education. You can refer to our website at 16 www.manitobacec.ca for information about the 17 Commission and this public hearing. 18 The Commission operates under the authority of 19 Manitoba's Environmental Act. It is also directed by 20 procedural guidelines to ensure that the hearings 21 remain fair and open forums for the exchange of 22 information and ideas and that they provide full 23 opportunity for public involvement in the 24 environmental assessment process in Manitoba. 25 We are here today at the request of the 2919 1 Minister of Conservation to conduct an integrated 2 public hearing respecting the Manitoba Hydro and 3 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation proposal for the 4 development of the Wuskwatim Generation Station and 5 associated transmission facilities. 6 The Commission was mandated to conduct a 7 hearing to consider, firstly, the justification, need 8 for and alternatives to the Wuskwatim proposals. And 9 secondly, the potential environmental socioeconomic 10 and cultural effects of the construction and 11 operation of the Wuskwatim proposals. 12 The Commission was requested to conduct the 13 hearing in general accordance with the process 14 guidelines respecting public hearings which include 15 procedures for prehearing meetings or conferences and 16 for proprietary information. 17 Following the public hearing, the Commission 18 shall provide a report to the Minister of 19 Conservation in accordance with Section 7 subsection 20 3 of the Environment Act. 21 The hearing here in Thompson will go on till 22 five o'clock this afternoon at which time we will 23 adjourn for dinner and then we will reconvene at 24 seven o'clock and will go on in the evening until the 25 registered presenters get an opportunity to make 2920 1 their presentations. And we will reconvene tomorrow 2 morning at nine and we will adjourn hopefully around 3 five o'clock. 4 The Commission has already held hearings in 5 Winnipeg during the last three weeks. And following 6 the hearings here, the Commission will move on to The 7 Pas to hear presentation on the 25th and 26th in The 8 Pas. And then we'll reconvene back in Winnipeg on 9 the 6th, 7th and 8th of April and following that, if 10 necessary. 11 We begin today with opening remarks by Mr. 12 Larry Strachan of the Manitoba Conservation on the 13 environmental assessment and review process 14 undertaken to date and the licensing process to 15 follow the public hearing. 16 The co-proponents, Manitoba Hydro and NCN, 17 will then give a presentation on their Need For and 18 Alternatives To the Wuskwatim Generation and 19 Transmission Projects and the Environmental Impact 20 Statement for the projects. 21 Once they have completed their presentation, 22 all or any of you who wish may ask questions of the 23 proponents. The proponents, when we talk of the 24 proponents we always talk of Manitoba Hydro and NCN 25 so that you may obtain clarification or get a better 2921 1 understanding of aspects of the projects or so that 2 you may respond to some of the things you have heard. 3 Once the process of questioning the proponents 4 has been completed, those who wish may make a 5 presentation. Some of the people have already 6 registered with Ms. Mueller in the back or with Mr. 7 Grewar indicating that they wish to make 8 presentations, to express views and opinions. And we 9 welcome those presentations. That is how we get to 10 understand how you perceive the projects on which you 11 will be receiving explanations. 12 So all of you, in good time will get this 13 opportunity to speak to the Commission. Many people 14 have made presentations when we were going through 15 the hearing in Winnipeg. And we hope that the people 16 of Thompson area will also come forth and make their 17 presentation. As I said already, to make 18 presentations, all you have to do is indicate to Ms. 19 Mueller in the back or to Mr. Grewar that you wish to 20 make a presentation. 21 When you do come forth to address questions to 22 the proponents or to make presentation, we ask you to 23 speak in the mike. A mike will be set up here. And 24 when you do, please identify yourself and you will be 25 sworn in. No, you will not be sworn in to make 2922 1 questions but you will be when you make 2 presentations. Mr. Grewar will do that. 3 I think that about covers what I have to say 4 at this time except maybe if you wish a written copy 5 of the materials that will be recorded, everything 6 that is stated here will be recorded, you will see 7 there's a court reporter there and everything gets 8 written up and you can get copies of that by 9 contacting the reporters, I gather. Or if you want 10 some of the information, you can also access their 11 website which is www.reidreporting.com, Reid spelled 12 R-E-I-D. You can also make arrangements to obtain 13 transcripts or to purchase copies of transcripts in 14 various formats. The number that you have to call is 15 in Winnipeg, 947-9774. 16 At the conclusion of all the hearings when 17 everything is completed, the Commission will prepare 18 a report and that report will be presented to the 19 Minister of Conservation. 20 That is all I have to say at this time and 21 I'll call upon Mr. Strachan to make his presentation. 22 Mr. Grewar, do you have comments? 23 MR. GREWAR: No, Mr. Chairman. As Mr. 24 Strachan is moving towards the front of the room, I 25 was just going to mention there are about half a 2923 1 dozen maybe 10 additional chairs up front here for 2 anyone in the back. There are chairs here. And at 3 the break, we will also try and secure some 4 additional chairs but there are about 10 chairs here 5 at the front if anyone wants to come forward so they 6 are not standing. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I see many chairs here 8 empty. All right. I presume those who are still 9 standing choose to do so. 10 Mr. Strachan. 11 MR. STRACHAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good 12 afternoon, panel members, proponents, participants, 13 ladies and gentlemen. My name is Larry Strachan. 14 I'm the director of the Environmental Approvals 15 Branch for Manitoba Conservation out of Winnipeg. 16 And I'm here this afternoon to share with you, very 17 briefly, an overview of the Environmental Assessment 18 Process that we have undertaken on the proposed 19 Wuskwatim projects. 20 There are two projects under review, a 21 generating station project and a transmission line 22 project. There are Manitoba Environment Act licenses 23 required for the projects and also there's a federal 24 comprehensive study review and approval that is 25 required for the generation project. 2924 1 Because of the two provincial and federal 2 approvals, we decided to undertake a cooperative 3 environmental review process and this was pursuant to 4 an agreement that we have with Canada which outlines 5 the steps taken for a cooperative process. The 6 process is administered by a project administration 7 team chaired by myself and consisting of both federal 8 and provincial representatives. And the team, as I 9 indicated, is chaired by myself. 10 We use the Manitoba Environment Act process to 11 generate the necessary information and we recognize 12 that this public hearing is an important step of the 13 environmental assessment and licensing process to get 14 public information on the proposals under review. 15 The information that we generate through the process 16 must satisfy the legal requirements of both the 17 Manitoba Environment Act and the Federal Canadian 18 Environmental Assessment Act. 19 The proposals under review were filed for 20 formal review in December of 2001. And to assist the 21 proponents in preparing the environmental assessment 22 for the projects, we developed a set of Environmental 23 Impact Statement guidelines through a consultation 24 process led by this Clean Environment Commission. 25 And those guidelines were finalized in April of 2002. 2925 1 The Environmental Impact Statements, in 2 accordance with the guidelines, were submitted in 3 April of 2003. And then we subjected the 4 Environmental Impact Statements to a public and 5 technical review to determine whether or not the 6 information was satisfactory. To assist some 7 participants, we also established the Participant 8 Assistance Program which is a funding program under 9 the Manitoba Environment Act which allows funding to 10 be awarded to those people that apply for it to 11 participate fully in the public hearing process. 12 As a result of the review of the information, 13 two supplementary filings were required and there was 14 more specific information required for our federal 15 colleagues, Federal Fisheries and Oceans. 16 As a result of the review, our review, we 17 determined in October 2003 that the Environmental 18 Impact Statements and the supplementary filings 19 satisfied the intent and scope of the Environmental 20 Assessment Guidelines and that they were sufficient 21 to proceed to this public hearing process. 22 As I indicated earlier, the advice from this 23 public hearing process is an important component of 24 the Manitoba Environment Act assessment process. And 25 we will be considering that advice very carefully 2926 1 once this hearing process is completed. 2 Thank you. That's a brief overview of the 3 assessment process. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Strachan. I now 5 call upon the proponents, those who will be making 6 the presentation of the project. 7 MR. PRIMROSE: Good afternoon. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon. 9 MR. PRIMROSE: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. 10 Good afternoon to all the people that are here today. 11 My name is Jerry Primrose, Chief of the 12 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. I would like to thank 13 you and the Commissioners and also all other 14 participants for this opportunity to speak again 15 about the Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission 16 Projects. 17 Thompson is in our traditional territory and 18 has been for over 7,500 years. The Nisichawayasihk 19 Cree Nation is committed to the economy of the city 20 and to the north. Thompson is the hub of Northern 21 Manitoba and a vital importance to our community. It 22 is where many of our members live and many of our 23 young people attend high school, college and 24 university. 25 We believe Thompson will benefit from the 2927 1 development of the Wuskwatim Generation and 2 Transmission Projects through new business 3 development and the overall investment in 4 infrastructure and economic diversification. 5 As a potential part owner of the generation 6 project, our First Nation will be able to support the 7 economy of the City of Thompson and the region. We 8 can help broaden Thompson economy and make it less -- 9 pardon me, more diverse. Already, we are seeing 10 economic diversity and investment in Thompson and I'm 11 proud to say our First Nation has been a part of 12 that. 13 In 1998, NCN purchased the Mystery Lake Motor 14 Hotel here in Thompson. We did this with the funds 15 generated by the NCN trust established as part of the 16 compensation we negotiated in 1998, or pardon me, 17 1996 as part of the Northern Flood Implementation 18 Agreement. This has been a successful investment for 19 us and we will continue to make prudent investments 20 here in the future. 21 Developing a brighter future for our people is 22 a primary goal of the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. 23 And we will continue to focus on that goal despite 24 the criticisms we have heard at this hearing over the 25 past three weeks. 2928 1 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, during the course 2 of these hearings, it has been suggested we have 3 failed to protect the Aboriginal rights of our people 4 and failed to consider rights of other First Nations 5 in our negotiations with Manitoba Hydro, 6 particularly where the people of South Indian Lake 7 are concerned. 8 Well, many residents of South Indian Lake are 9 also members of Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. We 10 don't want to speak for them. We don't speak for 11 them because they have told us not to as they work 12 towards their goal of independence from our First 13 Nation to establish their own reserve. 14 But we've always had a head man in South 15 Indian who is our liaison there. Under law, we are 16 obligated to them and we support and respect their 17 goals even though the process of separation like any 18 process of separation has been painful for our First 19 Nation. It is a process that began many many years 20 ago and the final separation agreement is yet to be 21 negotiated. 22 Still the NCN members of South Indian Lake 23 have been eligible to vote, to have their say on the 24 proposed Wuskwatim project. But it is no surprise 25 that they had been against the proposal because they 2929 1 have been against any decision or initiative of the 2 NCN council for over a decade. Yes, we are still one 3 nation in law but we went our separate ways many 4 years ago -- or to put it, many moons ago. 5 In 1992, the residents of South Indian Lake 6 finalized an independent settlement with Manitoba 7 Hydro to compensate them for damages caused by the 8 Churchill River Diversion. The NCN of Nelson House 9 had no role to play in those negotiations. Our input 10 was offered but it was not accepted. 11 Instead, we entered into our own comprehensive 12 negotiations with Manitoba Hydro. And finally in 13 1976, we settled our negotiations and developed the 14 compensation package which not only provided economic 15 support but gave us control over the development of 16 resources in our traditional lands. 17 It was this 1996 agreement that led us into 18 these negotiations with Manitoba Hydro for Wuskwatim 19 and these negotiations are ongoing. They are open, 20 transparent and they have been very successful. We 21 believe the progress we have made is due mostly to 22 our approach that has included our community in the 23 decision-making process. 24 Well, we have consulted with our members every 25 step of the way as a community. We haven't agreed on 2930 1 everything. The pain and suffering of our people 2 over the past 100 years has taken a toll. 3 As you have heard at this hearing, there is 4 divide between those of us who want to move forward 5 and those of us who cannot move forward. The issues 6 that divide us are not just about Hydro and the 7 flooding, these are complex and long-standing issues 8 that cannot be addressed by this forum. 9 The fact is we, as people, can never be fully 10 compensated for all our losses. We have suffered. 11 But slowly, we are putting the past behind us 12 through new treaties and agreements and by taking 13 responsibility for our own destiny. As a community, 14 while we haven't agreed on everything, we are moving 15 forward, guided by a democratic process and with 16 respect not only to the views of our members but to 17 outsiders as well. 18 And may I make it clear that when I said at 19 the opening of this hearing that some outsiders are 20 acting like economic terrorists, I was not referring 21 to other First Nations who face the same economic 22 challenges as we do, I'm talking about do-gooders who 23 cannot accept that our people are independent and 24 able to make our own decisions. We do not need their 25 protection. 2931 1 We have every right to use our natural 2 resources to aid us in our struggles for economic 3 survival and every right to frame the way we 4 participate. 5 We have also heard that if we are partners in 6 this project, we will be compromised in protecting 7 our environment. Nothing is more important to NCN 8 than our environment and to our people. Protecting 9 both is our primary concern. Of course, the proposed 10 Wuskwatim projects will have an environmental impact 11 but the impact is minimal especially when balanced 12 against the benefits. 13 As you have heard, the flooding will be less 14 than half a square kilometre. And this is because we 15 said no to the original high-head dam that was 16 proposed for the project because the flooding would 17 have been substantial and this was unacceptable to 18 us. We use our traditional knowledge which, combined 19 with western science, equals sustainable development 20 for both of us and also to the north. 21 To say we're not committed to protecting the 22 interests of our people is wrong. We have no 23 conflict of interest being here today as proponents 24 with Manitoba Hydro. Everything we have done in 25 working with Manitoba Hydro towards the proposed 2932 1 development has been for our future generations. We 2 are here for our children and their children. That 3 is responsible leadership. It isn't a personal 4 agenda for myself or for my council. We are working 5 to change the status quo. 6 There has been progress since 1996. We have 7 used our trust to develop community facilities 8 including Community Family and Wellness Centre, the 9 personal care home, just to name a few. And then 10 we've also built nearly 100 homes since that time, 11 yet that isn't enough. Everyday is still a struggle 12 for our people. 13 Try to imagine living in a three-bedroom house 14 with 17 people, elders, young adults and young 15 children. Imagine the tension and challenges of that 16 day, day in and day out. It's a common situation in 17 Nelson House because our population continues to 18 grow. 19 As I speak to you, I need 400 homes. To build 20 at Nelson House costs about $100,000 for each home. 21 That's $40 million plus the cost of supporting 22 infrastructure. How am I ever going to get that? I 23 ask myself everyday. We have to provide education 24 for our children. We haven't had any increases in 25 post-secondary school funding since 1989. How are we 2933 1 going to fund education for our growing population? 2 The annual increase in our population is about three 3 and a half per cent every year. 4 So if we're going to sit around and do 5 nothing, we are going to be in all sorts of trouble 6 in the future. 7 Part of our survival in the past was to live 8 off the land. But our youngest generation of people 9 cannot live off the land because they have never 10 learned the skills. And in 1970s and 1980s, 11 environmental groups promoted the anti-fur lobby. 12 Whether you also want to blame the flooding, the 13 result is the same. It killed our trapping industry 14 for a generation. Our trappers could not pass on 15 their traditional knowledge to the next generation. 16 Now even if the fur market makes a comeback, our 17 young people cannot go out and trap because they 18 don't have the skills. 19 Living off the land is no longer an option. 20 The majority of our people, even though we have heard 21 so-called experts testify at this hearing that is our 22 best option. 23 At the hearing last week in Winnipeg, Peter 24 Kulchyski, the head of Native Studies at the 25 University of Manitoba, suggested our people should 2934 1 somehow turn back the clock and become hunters once 2 again. He's dreaming if he thinks our rapidly 3 growing population would be able to survive today 4 based on a hunter's economy. And what makes him 5 think our young people would all want to be hunters? 6 They live in the 21st century and they want what the 7 21st century can offer them. Our young people want 8 to maintain our Cree culture but they also have the 9 dreams of a successful life in Canada as teachers, 10 dentists, doctors, even lawyers, engineers, artists, 11 musicians, business leaders and trades people. I 12 think Mr. Kulchyski needs a reality check. 13 We don't need his help in deciding what our 14 future should be. We will decide that. And we will 15 be responsible for our decisions. We live in our 16 community and we know what our culture is and what we 17 need to do to preserve it as we move forward. 18 Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, this is 2004. 19 It seems our people are trapped within the 19th 20 century standard of living. We want to catch up with 21 the rest of Canadians. Our young people want to 22 work. But today, living off the land has a new 23 meaning. That is using the profits and opportunities 24 presented by projects like Wuskwatim to train and 25 educate our people for real jobs and business 2935 1 development initiatives. They have the right to live 2 as well as anyone else with the same opportunity. No 3 one can deny them this. 4 We are here today in support of Wuskwatim and 5 the opportunities it represents to create a better 6 future for our people, our children and generations 7 to come. With that, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, I 8 thank you and to all the people that are here, I 9 thank you for listening. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adams. 11 MR. ADAMS: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, 12 Commissioners, participants and members of the 13 community. My name is Ken Adams and I'm the 14 vice-president of the Power Supply of Manitoba Hydro. 15 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman. Sorry, Ken, if I 16 have to interrupt, but there are copies of the 17 presentation at the back of the room and I wonder if 18 maybe our secretary could just move through the 19 audience so that people have those handy. Since 20 Hydro has made them available, they should be 21 distributed. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Grewar. 23 MR. ADAMS: Okay. Today, we are pleased to 24 continue our presentation of the Wuskwatim Generating 25 and Transmission Projects and we look forward to 2936 1 continuing the very vigorous discussion regarding 2 their merits that we've had for the last three weeks. 3 If we do proceed with these projects, it will 4 be the first northern generating station we will have 5 commenced in nearly 20 years. In that 20 year 6 period, we thoroughly reviewed our approach to such 7 developments. Our current plans embody our new way 8 of cooperating with the local Aboriginal people and 9 our commitment to environmental stewardship. 10 In 1992, Manitoba Hydro became one of the 11 first major organizations in Canada to adopt its own 12 principles of sustainable development. Along with 13 our corporate vision and mission statement, our 14 sustainable development principles provide the 15 backdrop against which we evaluate all potential 16 projects and programs. 17 Our business environment is very complex and 18 is continually evolving reflecting the changing and 19 diverse perspectives of our customers, our owners and 20 other stakeholders. Our business environment is also 21 affected by unfolding events throughout North America 22 such as the structural changes in the electricity 23 industry and by global issues such as climate change. 24 The Wuskwatim project, we are proposing, has been 25 shaped by all of these influences. 2937 1 We firmly believe that the Wuskwatim 2 Development is an excellent project when viewed from 3 each of an environmental, a financial and a social 4 perspective. That is the so-called triple bottom 5 line approach. 6 I personally have worked in the hydro industry 7 in several countries for nearly 40 years and I'm 8 convinced that this project is an excellent example 9 of sustainable development in action. It fully 10 reflects the core values and the strategic priorities 11 recommended by the World Commission of Dams in 2000 12 and is also fully consistent with the International 13 Hydro Power Association's sustainability guidelines 14 recently released. 15 As I noted earlier, Wuskwatim marks the 16 introduction of a fundamentally new and different 17 approach to development of Manitoba's hydroelectric 18 resources. I would like to emphasize five aspects. 19 The first is that we are proposing to advance its 20 inservice date by about 10 years from what would be 21 required if we were building only to serve Manitoba 22 customers. This will help us continue to participate 23 in the very highly competitive and very lucrative 24 export market. Continued success in this export 25 market is needed to allow us to continue to offer low 2938 1 power rates in Manitoba. 2 The second aspect is that based in large part 3 what we have learned during our consultation, and as 4 Chief Primrose just recently mentioned, Wuskwatim has 5 been deliberately designed as a low impact project. 6 The original design was revised to reduce the size 7 from about 350 megawatts to 200 megawatts and to 8 virtually eliminate all flooding. Its operation will 9 be restricted to what we call daily run of the river 10 in order to limit water level fluctuations both 11 upstream and downstream. Also through this 12 consultation process, we have selected transmission 13 line, access road and construction camp locations 14 that respect environmental cultural and local 15 community values. 16 The third aspect is the unprecedented extent 17 of the consultation that has taken place. Hydro 18 initiated consultations with NCN in 1998. 19 Subsequently, starting in 2001, Manitoba Hydro and 20 NCN have consulted with every community in the 21 project area, whether they be in the immediate 22 vicinity, upstream, downstream, near the transmission 23 facilities or just in the region and interested in 24 the project. 25 Excluding our meeting with NCN members and the 2939 1 regulatory authorities and excluding the proceedings 2 in front of this Commission, we have participated in 3 almost 100 meetings with various interested parties. 4 And to date, we have filed binders with over 10 feet 5 of written material explaining the project and we've 6 made it available to the whole world on our website. 7 I doubt that there has ever been a comparable 8 project in Canada with such a comprehensive community 9 consultation and public participation process. 10 The fourth difference from previous projects 11 is that we have worked with both the provincial and 12 the federal governments and the communities situated 13 along the Burntwood and Lower Nelson Rivers to 14 establish a job training program well before the 15 project starts. This program will ensure that 16 northern Aboriginal people can develop the skills 17 needed to qualify for the higher skilled, higher paid 18 jobs that will be available on this project and on 19 future projects that we or others may seek to 20 undertake in the region. It will also help them 21 prepare for long-term employment in the operation and 22 maintenance of the facilities at other locations. 23 The fifth aspect of this project, what makes 24 it fundamentally different from any that we have ever 25 done before and the one of which we are most proud is 2940 1 our partnership arrangement with Nisichawayasihk Cree 2 Nation. As Chief Primrose explained, NCN has 3 participated as a full partner in all the planning 4 activities, the public and community consultation 5 process, the open houses, the environmental 6 assessments and all other aspects of the project. I 7 think it's fair to say that it's been an interesting 8 journey for both of us so far and we look forward to 9 a long and mutually beneficial association with NCN. 10 Before we move to the more detailed 11 presentation of the Wuskwatim project, it is 12 appropriate for me to confirm Manitoba Hydro's 13 intention with regard to certain other potential 14 sources of electricity supplied. We will continue to 15 pursue energy conservation and demand management, or 16 Power Smart programs in our terminology, to the 17 maximum level at which they are economically and 18 financially viable. 19 We will continue to pursue system efficiencies 20 or supply-side enhancement, again in our terminology, 21 again to the maximum level which is economically 22 viable. 23 We continue to explore the possibility of what 24 are often called alternative energy sources and we 25 have assumed that over the next five years, we will 2941 1 be able to purchase or construct the equivalent of at 2 least 250 megawatts worth without any negative 3 financial effect on the company. In fact, we don't 4 see these energy sources as competitors to the 5 Wuskwatim project but rather as complimentary. They 6 are certainly not mutually exclusive. 7 Returning to Wuskwatim, Manitoba Hydro is 8 fully aware of the importance of its activities in 9 Manitoba and that our actions today will leave a 10 legacy for future Manitobans. Hydro and NCN are 11 confident that when viewed in its entirety, we will 12 be able to demonstrate that Wuskwatim will provide a 13 source of clean, renewable energy that will displace 14 fossil fuels in central North America. It will 15 provide financial and reliability benefits to 16 Manitoba Hydro's domestic customers. And that it 17 will be profitable to both Manitoba Hydro and NCN. 18 We will also demonstrate that the 19 environmental effects of the project are not 20 significant and in fact, when viewed on a global 21 basis, there will be net environmental benefits. We 22 will demonstrate that the projects will provide an 23 economic stimulus to Manitoba particularly here in 24 Northern Manitoba. And we will show that the risks 25 associated with the proposed development are 2942 1 relatively low and readily manageable. 2 At this point, I will turn the presentation 3 over to Ed Wojczynski, who is our Division Manager of 4 Power Planning and Development, and Councillor Elvis 5 Thomas who is the NCN Councillor with responsibility 6 for the Future Development Portfolio. Mr. 7 Wojczynski, Mr. Thomas. 8 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Councillor Thomas and I were 9 just going to call up the presenters and the 10 witnesses and introduce them. And I believe there is 11 one more witness, Mr. Grewar, who needs to be sworn 12 in. So we thought this would be an appropriate time 13 for that before going into the presentation. 14 MR. THOMAS: The Panel members that we have 15 with us are George Rempel. He's with TetrES. And 16 Dave Cormie, he's with Manitoba Hydro. Ed 17 Wojczynski, of course you see him up here at the 18 front. Cam Osler, he is with Inter Group. Stuart 19 Davies, he's with North/South. Elizabeth Hicks, 20 she's with ND Lea. Cam MacInnes, he's with Unis 21 Limited and works for NCN. And Lyn Wray, she's with 22 Manitoba Hydro. And these constitute our Panel 23 members for the day. Of course, you've already met 24 Chief Primrose and also Mr. Ken Adams who is the 25 vice-president for Power Planning with Manitoba 2943 1 Hydro. 2 With that, we'll start our presentation and 3 we'll have some closing comments after that. Oh, 4 Elizabeth Hicks needs to be sworn in. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar, would you do that 6 and then can we arrange to have the additional chairs 7 please in front for the members of the Panel? 8 MR. GREWAR: Yes, we can certainly. Ms. 9 Hicks, are you aware that it is an offence in 10 Manitoba to knowingly mislead this Commission? 11 MS. HICKS: Yes. 12 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell only the 13 truth in proceedings before this Commission? 14 MS. HICKS: Yes, do I. 15 MR. GREWAR: Thank you. 16 17 (ELIZABETH HICKS: SWORN) 18 19 THE CHAIRMAN: I remind the people in 20 attendance that the other members are already sworn 21 in from the hearings that have begun in Winnipeg. 22 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, we were 23 under the impression that you weren't going to all 24 sit up there until the questioning actually occurred 25 afterwards so you're not staring into the projection 2944 1 lens. 2 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Yes, Mr. Chair. What we 3 thought is perhaps presenters can stay at the front 4 during presentation and then after that, we assumed 5 there will be a break, and then we could bring the 6 rest up if that would suit you, sir? 7 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine. 8 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Our first presentation is 9 going to be by Mr. George Rempel. He's going to be 10 presenting on behalf of NCN and Manitoba Hydro a 11 description of what is Wuskwatim and where are we 12 going to build it and give some idea of what the 13 project itself is about. We're going to then follow 14 with a few other presentations but we'll start with 15 Mr. Rempel. 16 MR. REMPEL: My job is to describe the 17 projects to you briefly. There are two projects, the 18 generation station and the transmission project. 19 They are extensively described in individual binders. 20 There's a binder Volume 3 for the generation station 21 that describes in great detail the generation 22 station. And there's another volume in the 23 transmission line EIS that also gives details of the 24 projects. What I'll do today is give you an 25 overview. 2945 1 Firstly, I'll provide a bit of perspective in 2 terms of where the project is located. Here we have 3 the City of Thompson. We have Nelson House community 4 over here. Nelson House is about 37 kilometers I 5 guess northwest of the project and Thompson is about 6 46 kilometers from the project. We show Snow Lake 7 there because there will be some transmission lines 8 going there and there's also The Pas over here. 9 What we are looking at in terms of the 10 environmental assessment is a 200 megawatt generation 11 station located at Wuskwatim Falls here. It's 12 actually at Taskinigup Falls which is the outlet 13 effectively of Wuskwatim Lake. It's on the Burntwood 14 River. 15 In constructing this project, there will be an 16 access road from PR 391 about 48 kilometers long. 17 It's a permanent all-weather access road. There will 18 be other infrastructures such as the switching 19 station, et cetera. There will be a six year 20 construction schedule. So assuming a 2004 start, 21 first power will be out in 2010. There are 22 transmission lines from the project to connect to the 23 existing hydro transmission system in Thompson, also 24 at Snow lake and at The Pas. 25 As Mr. Adams and Chief Primrose said, this 2946 1 project has been designed to minimize flooding. 2 Manitoba Hydro and NCN selected a low-head project. 3 They could have built a dam higher that would have 4 resulted in more power but also more flooding. This 5 design minimizes environmental effects. The flooding 6 in the upstream area of the dam is actually limited 7 to less than half a square kilometer. 8 The low-head design produces about 200 9 megawatts of power. If the high-head that was 10 originally contemplated had been built, there would 11 be 350 megawatts, but there would also be 140 square 12 kilometers of flooding. So we have less energy and 13 less flooding. This low-head design actually amounts 14 to the least amount of flooding of any generating 15 station in Manitoba Hydro's system. 16 I'm going to take a bit of time to describe 17 the site where the dam is proposed to be developed. 18 This is Wuskwatim Lake up here and we have Wuskwatim 19 Falls. The river flows this way, tumbles down 20 Taskinigup Falls and then continues on down the 21 Burntwood River. This distance here is about three 22 kilometres. A dam will be built here. This will 23 result in this water here rising about seven metres. 24 That means this area here, which we call the 25 immediate forebay, will see some flooding along here. 2947 1 This is about three kilometers. There will be a band 2 of flooding about 25 to 300 metres wide along here. 3 This band will be cleared before the flooding occurs. 4 But this is where the half square kilometre of land 5 will be flooded. There will be no flooding -- extra 6 new flooding on Wuskwatim Lake. The lake will be 7 held at the upper range of where it exists now on 8 occasion at elevation 234. 9 Further, in terms of building this project, 10 there will be a powerhouse and a spillway area here. 11 There will be three turbines put into a powerhouse. 12 So the river, instead of flowing here, will then go 13 through the turbines and generate power. This dam 14 will capture about 22 metres of head or drop and that 15 will be converted to electrical energy. 16 There will also be excavation over here in 17 order to ease the flow from Wuskwatim Lake into this 18 immediate forebay and into the turbines. There will 19 be channels cut into this area here to make for 20 better hydraulic conveyance. That extra material 21 will be piled over here. There will be rock riprap 22 along the edges. It will be rehabilitated after. 23 And that's the way the site will be developed. 24 I'm going to show you the effects of the 25 Wuskwatim project on water levels in the general 2948 1 area. This map will show it but I need to tell you a 2 little bit about the perspective here. Here is the 3 Rat River system, here is the Burntwood system. 4 Notigi is off the site here. Notigi is actually 5 about 90 kilometres from the site over here to the 6 west. Here we have Nelson House and it's about 37 7 kilometres in this fashion distance here. 8 There is Footprint Lake where the community is 9 located. Here's Threepoint Lake. As we go 10 downstream on the Burntwood, we find here a set of 11 rapids that are significant in terms of the water 12 regime. Cranberry Lake, Sesep Lake, Wuskwatim Lake, 13 Wuskwatim Brook. Here is the proposed site of the 14 station, Taskinigup Falls. Then we go downstream. 15 This is about I believe 13 kilometres to Opegano 16 Lake. Another 14 kilometres, we get to Birch Tree and 17 here is Thompson. 18 So what I'm going to do now is show you what 19 the effects of this station will be in terms of this 20 water regime. 21 Firstly there will be no changes in level 22 fluctuations at Threepoint or at Footprint Lake. The 23 water levels will change as they have in the past. 24 They change depending on the amount of flow that 25 comes down the Rat/Burntwood system. So if it's a 2949 1 wet year, the flows are higher and the levels are a 2 bit higher. That will continue as it has for the 3 last 18 or so years. 4 The water levels will change below Early 5 Morning Rapids. These are a set of rapids that act 6 as a divider if you'll like. The water levels that 7 are changed here will not pass upstream further up 8 past Early Morning Rapids either in open water or in 9 winter. 10 In this area here, there will be a fairly 11 stable water level. There will be small variations 12 near the upper range of what happens now. Right now, 13 the Wuskwatim Lake varies from 232.6 to 234.3. 14 With a dam, it will be held almost always at 15 234. In fact, there will be small variations about 16 13 centimetres or five inches on a daily basis. 17 That's excluding wind and wave effects. And that 18 variation comes about, in terms of wind, are three 19 units running, say, and two units are then -- one 20 unit is shut down. Or say if there's one unit 21 running and two units are put on, in other words 22 changing from one unit to two units, will change the 23 outflow a little bit and that water level here will 24 change a bit. 25 On a daily basis, the water coming down here 2950 1 will be the same amount of water that leaves. But 2 those variations from one unit to two units or two 3 units to three units will cause some water level 4 changes downstream. 5 Just immediately below the station in what we 6 call the tail race, there will be changes within the 7 day to a maximum of 1.3 metres, 4.2 feet during 8 normal open water operating conditions. Half the 9 time, there will be virtually no changes. 10 As we get to Opegano Lake, there will be water 11 levels to a maximum daily amount of 0.1 metres or 4 12 inches. Sorry, a median 50 per cent of the time 13 there will be .1 metres and maximum .45 metres, about 14 one and a half feet. As we proceed further down, the 15 water level variations are dampened even further. 16 And by the time you get to Birch Tree, there will be 17 a 0.1 metre or about 3 inches under open water on a 18 maximum basis. Half the time, there will be 19 virtually zero changes. 20 So basically, the water level variation occurs 21 between this area here and here, below Early Morning 22 Rapids to Birch Tree Lake. 23 A few remarks then on the Transmission Line 24 Project. The transmission line has to go from one 25 point to another. In between, there's a lot of 2951 1 flexibility and the routes are typically selected to 2 avoid environmental sensitivities. So route 3 selection is a big part of this planning process. It 4 involves balancing biophysical, socioeconomic, 5 technical and cost perspectives. Public input is a 6 big factor here. A lot of meetings are taken to 7 involve the local First Nations, Aboriginal people, 8 the elected officials, environmental groups, resource 9 users and the general public in the identification of 10 alternative routes and then also into the selection 11 of the preferred route. 12 The aim is to reduce the adverse environmental 13 effects and enhance positive effects and that's 14 written up in the Environmental Impact Statement. 15 This is a picture, a map showing the routes 16 that have been proposed. Here is Thompson. There is 17 the Wuskwatim project site here, Snow lake and The 18 Pas Rall's Island Station. There will be a line 19 built from Thompson into Wuskwatim. It will be the 20 first line built, 45 kilometres long. It will 21 provide construction power for building the site. 22 And it will look like this. It will be a steel 23 tower, 38 metres high, 60 metre right of way most of 24 which will be cleared. 25 The helicopter in this picture shows that 2952 1 there will be helicopter maintenance of the right of 2 way not construction. There will also be a line 3 similar to this from Snow Lake to The Pas. These are 4 existing stations at Herblet Lake and The Pas. It 5 will be a similar line like this. It will be 165 6 kilometres long. And we have one more line that's a 7 bit different here that's between Wuskwatim. That's 8 here between Wuskwatim and Snow Lake. There will be 9 two lines on one right of way. The right of way is a 10 bit wider then, 110 metres, and still has got two 38 11 metre high steel structures. That's to increase 12 reliability of power. So we have about 350 13 kilometres of transmission line to connect the 14 station into the existing system. 15 I believe that's the last slide on project 16 description. That's an overview on projection 17 description. And Mr. Dave Cormie will now give you 18 some indication of how this station might affect the 19 overall hydro operation. 20 MR. CORMIE: Thank you, George. My name is 21 David Cormie. I am in charge of Power System 22 Operation at Manitoba Hydro. I would like to spend a 23 few moments this afternoon describing the potential 24 for change in Power System Operation as a result of 25 the Wuskwatim project. 2953 1 Manitoba Hydro has 16 generating stations with 2 an installed capacity of around 5,500 megawatts. The 3 addition of the Wuskwatim station, about 200 4 megawatts, is a small addition. And there will be 5 some small changes to the way the power system 6 operates because we are adding to our capability. 7 But besides the local effects, in the 8 immediate project area that George spoke of a few 9 minutes ago, there will not be any significant 10 changes in water levels outside the specific project 11 area. 12 The first couple of slides I want to talk 13 about are the operation of the Churchill River 14 Diversion. The Churchill River Diversion will 15 continue to operate the way it has in the past. 16 Water releases at Notigi will be made in accordance 17 with the water supply. The design and planning for 18 Wuskwatim has assumed that the CRD will continue to 19 operate in its current form and that we will continue 20 to operate according to annual modifications under 21 our interim license that we receive from the Manitoba 22 Government under the Augmented Flow Program. 23 Wuskwatim will not change the CRD flow 24 patterns except for the flow patterns that are 25 changed on a daily basis as a result of Wuskwatim 2954 1 backing off a little bit at night and increasing 2 output during the day time. 3 Wuskwatim, on a daily basis, will pass the 4 flow that arise at the station. So every day 5 whenever water will rise from the releases upstream 6 at Notigi, that water will pass through the 7 generating station and there will only be minor water 8 level variations in the immediate forebay of the 9 generating station. 10 On the Churchill River again, Southern Indian 11 Lake reservoir will continue to operate as it has in 12 the past. This chart shows the water levels as they 13 vary throughout the years. In a normal year, the 14 level of Southern Indian Lake is raised between the 15 lower level of 843 feet to a high level of 847 and a 16 half feet. And that is usually reached in the mid 17 summer. And that's achieved by having reduced 18 outflows from Notigi and also the extra water that 19 runs off from the snow melt run-off in the spring and 20 summer rain falls and the lake is filled up. And 21 then during the fall and the winter period, the level 22 of Southern Indian Lake is lowered in order to 23 increase the flows going down the diversion route, 24 down the Burntwood River into the Nelson River. 25 And that pattern will continue regardless of 2955 1 whether Wuskwatim is built or not and will not be 2 changed by the construction of Wuskwatim. 3 The objective for operating the Churchill 4 River Diversion is to fill Southern Indian Lake up 5 and then draw it down so the extra water that's put 6 in storage in Southern Indian Lake during summertime 7 is made available to the downstream generating 8 stations in the wintertime. And it's our objective 9 each and every winter to draw the lake down so that 10 we make the most water available to the generating 11 stations downstream during the winter season. 12 Churchill River Diversion operation follows 13 this predictable seasonal pattern and that will not 14 change as a result of Wuskwatim. 15 There will be some small changes on a daily 16 basis to the way we operate the generating stations 17 on the Nelson River, specifically at the Kettle 18 Generating Station and the Stephens Lake Reservoir. 19 At night time, the power that Wuskwatim 20 produces is less valuable than in the day time. So 21 what we would like to do is to continue to operate 22 Wuskwatim but back our other generating stations 23 down. All our generating stations are connected 24 through the transmission system and they are all 25 linked together. So if Wuskwatim is producing power 2956 1 at night that we want to store, we will store that at 2 our Lower Nelson generating stations. 3 This chart shows the water levels on the Lower 4 Nelson River at the Kettle Generating Station. 5 Again, we operate the reservoir between a high level 6 of 463 feet to a low level of 453 feet. There's a 10 7 foot change there. For this chart, this is a chart 8 that shows the levels in June. Normally, the levels 9 range in a five foot range. 10 The blue line and the red line shows the 11 difference in our operation with and without the 12 construction of Wuskwatim. And there's only a very 13 small difference of less than an inch difference 14 between what the levels will be with Wuskwatim and 15 what they will be without Wuskwatim. And that's 16 because of the timing, the daily timing of our 17 generation of Wuskwatim. 18 Another major component of our power system 19 that will be affected, that could be affected by the 20 construction of Wuskwatim is the Lake Winnipeg 21 Regulation project. There are times of years when 22 Wuskwatim will produce power when that power is best 23 saved for release at another time. And it's through 24 the operation of the Lake Winnipeg Regulation project 25 that that savings occurs. 2957 1 On Lake Winnipeg, we have a license from the 2 government. And the government allows us to regulate 3 the lake between a high level of 715 feet and 711 4 feet. So there's four feet of level that can be used 5 for power purposes. During flood conditions, when 6 the water levels on Lake Winnipeg go above this 715 7 feet, Manitoba Hydro is required, by its license from 8 the province, to open the dam at Jenpeg to regulate 9 Lake Winnipeg to provide flood protection to keep the 10 levels on Lake Winnipeg as low as possible given the 11 flood conditions. 12 And you remember back in 1997, there was The 13 Flood of the Century. That's when Lake Winnipeg was 14 operated to keep the flooding minimal on Lake 15 Winnipeg. 16 During drought conditions, when the water 17 levels on Lake Winnipeg are very low, when they go 18 below the 711 feet, our license requires us to go to 19 the Minister of Water Stewardship and he sets the 20 outflows from Lake Winnipeg. So under extreme 21 drought conditions or on flood conditions, the 22 operation of Lake Winnipeg is set by the licence or 23 by the Minister. 24 In this four foot range, Manitoba Hydro has 25 the discretion to release water or to store water in 2958 1 Lake Winnipeg. During low water years, like we're 2 incurring this year, we're having a drought that 3 would occur about one year in every 50 years, we 4 operate the lake in a very conservative manner to 5 ensure that there will be enough electricity supply 6 available for Manitobans if the drought were to 7 continue. So we go into a conservation mode. 8 In the conservation mode, in the drought mode, 9 in the flood mode, these types of operations won't be 10 affected by the Wuskwatim project. 11 There is the potential for change during the 12 periods when water conditions are normal and we are 13 allowed to operate Lake Winnipeg for system 14 economics. And there is a potential there when we 15 can store the output from Wuskwatim and save it for 16 future times. And that would result in small changes 17 in outflows from Lake Winnipeg that would otherwise 18 not occur if the project had not been put in place. 19 So the question is how will the power system 20 operate or what will the water levels be in the 21 future with and without Wuskwatim? Manitoba Hydro 22 has some computer models that we run to simulate how 23 the power system will operate in the future. And 24 this is a chart that shows water levels on Cross Lake 25 with river flows and water supplies for the period 2959 1 1970 to 1990. And these are the water levels that 2 would occur on Cross Lake without the construction of 3 the Wuskwatim project. 4 Water levels you can see fluctuate from very 5 high levels to very low levels. The high levels are 6 during periods of floods. 1974 there was a very 7 large flood, 1979 a large flood, 1986 a large flood. 8 Water levels are high because there's a lot of water 9 coming down the rivers. Conversely during low water 10 years, like the droughts of the late eighties, the 11 droughts of the early eighties and 1977, water levels 12 are very low just because there's not a lot of water 13 flowing in the rivers. 14 So the water level fluctuations are occurring 15 because Mother Nature is giving us lots of rain and 16 lots of run-off or like what's happening this year, 17 very little rain or run-off and so the water levels 18 are low. So this is what our computer models are 19 predicting without the construction of Wuskwatim. 20 We can now put into the computer model what 21 can happen if we build Wuskwatim and we can compare 22 the black line, which is the prediction of levels 23 with Wuskwatim to the predictions without Wuskwatim. 24 And there are very very small changes in water levels 25 on Cross Lake comparing the two situations with or 2960 1 without Wuskwatim. So this is what leads us to 2 believe that there will be very small, almost 3 imperceptible changes in levels as a result of the 4 project. 5 For a lake like Cross Lake, water level 6 changes are occurring. We talked about the 7 difference between lowest levels and highest levels. 8 Right now, levels range about eight feet between a 9 very low dry year and a very high wet year. And so 10 the lake sees levels changing eight feet just due to 11 variation in rainfall. You can also see water level 12 changes around four feet due to wave effects. Ice 13 effects are around a foot. The wind causes the water 14 levels to change about half a foot. And our 15 operating at the Jenpeg Generating Station causes the 16 levels to change on a daily basis of about two 17 inches. 18 When we put Wuskwatim in, we expect that in 19 the summertime, there will be a very small, slightly 20 lower level of water level about .1 of a foot, a 21 little bit less than a foot -- sorry, a little less 22 than an inch, water levels will be about an inch 23 lower with the project than without. This is in the 24 average summer time. 25 Depending on how Manitoba Hydro sells the 2961 1 power, and it's our intention to sell the power from 2 Wuskwatim with a firm sale, it's minus .1 of a foot. 3 But with if we were not to sell it as a firm, a 4 product to a customer, as a sensitivity we did the 5 calculation what the level difference would be. And 6 the water level then in the summertime is about 4/10 7 of a foot, approximately 5 to 6 inches higher during 8 the summer under that sensitivity if we were not to 9 have a firm sale. 10 That is not our intention. Our intention is 11 to sell the power under our firm long-term contract. 12 So in conclusion under the water regime, we 13 don't expect any change to the Churchill River 14 Diversion operation or the water regime outside the 15 study area. There will be no perceptible change to 16 the Lower Nelson water levels and no perceptible 17 change in outflows from Lake Winnipeg. And no 18 perceptible change in water levels affected by -- on 19 those lakes affected by Lake Winnipeg regulation. 20 And we provided these water level effects to 21 our environmental team for their review to see what 22 the impacts from those might be. Thank you. 23 MR. MAYER: Mr. Chair, I think we should make 24 clear, because all of us understand when you are 25 talking 400 odd feet, that our lakes aren't that 2962 1 deep. And those of us who have been listening to 2 this presentation for a number of weeks recognize 3 when you're talking like the 400 level, we're talking 4 about feet above sea level, Mr. Cormie? 5 MR. CORMIE: That's correct, Mr. Mayer, 6 thanks. Good point. 7 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: I'm Ed Wojczynski for 8 Manitoba Hydro. I'm Division Manager of Power 9 Planning and also Environmental Licensing at Manitoba 10 Hydro. And I will be speaking on what's called Need 11 For and Alternatives To for Wuskwatim and that's 12 really what is the overall justification for 13 Wuskwatim. What are the alternatives to Wuskwatim? 14 And what are the economic and financial conclusions? 15 But I'm going to start off perhaps with a bit 16 of an explanation that we actually have two sets of 17 studies or two assessments in our Clean Environment 18 Commission process. We have what's called the Need 19 For an Alternatives which is, as I said, I was 20 looking at the justification for Wuskwatim. And 21 that's what I'm going to be speaking on. 22 And then after that, we have another part of 23 the review process and that's dealing with the 24 Environmental Impact Study for Wuskwatim and that's 25 dealing with the environmental impacts of Wuskwatim 2963 1 itself. So I'm only going to be dealing with the 2 first part and that's the Need For and Alternatives. 3 And this overhead gives a bit of a summary as to what 4 Need For and Alternatives is about. And our outline 5 for that comes from essentially the instructions 6 given or the request to the Clean Environment 7 Commission to look at this. And what they said is 8 that we should be looking that the CEC should ensure 9 that all of the alternative options were considered 10 and that Wuskwatim was selected on reasonable grounds 11 including economic viability as an export project. 12 And there's a mention of Wuskwatim in its 13 environment. 14 So we did an evaluation of looking at 15 Wuskwatim. And we've got a partnership here, NCN and 16 Manitoba Hydro, but when looking at the economics and 17 is it good in the province to build it or not. We 18 didn't look at the parts of the project that are 19 owned by Hydro or owned by NCN, we looked at the 20 entire project from an environmental licensing 21 benefit. 22 But secondly, we were also asked to 23 demonstrate what the effects are on Manitoba Hydro's 24 customer rates and also on the financial stability of 25 Manitoba Hydro. So the second part of the analysis 2964 1 was Manitoba Hydro itself. It's not NCN now looking 2 at what happens to our income, what happens to the 3 rates to Manitoba Hydro customers in the future. And 4 in that part of the submission, we did account for 5 the partnership arrangements and look specifically at 6 Manitoba Hydro's interests. 7 So starting with why Wuskwatim. And overall, 8 in one sentence, the reason we're proposing to 9 proceed with Wuskwatim is that it's an economic 10 profitable project with benefits for all Manitobans 11 including those in Northern Manitoba. And secondly, 12 because it is a very clean project with much less 13 environmental impact than the generation it 14 displaces. And that in a nutshell is why you want to 15 proceed with Wuskwatim. 16 This overhead expands on that somewhat and 17 gives a bit of the details. And we've got a few 18 thousand pages that expand on it some more. But 19 starting, the primary one is that Wuskwatim -- we're 20 looking at what's called the Need For now. And I'm 21 not going to be talking about Alternatives. That 22 will be later on. Right now, just for Wuskwatim, 23 what is the need for Wuskwatim? It will provide 24 economic, financial, environmental and reliability 25 benefits from increased electricity exports. What 2965 1 we're suggesting is that we advance Wuskwatim. 2 Our conclusions are, and I'll talk about that 3 later, that we would need Wuskwatim around 2020, 4 about 16 years from now, anyways, to meet domestic 5 load in Manitoba. But we're proposing advancing it 6 to 2010 so that we can export the power from that. 7 And we see that as providing a lot of benefits. 8 Manitoba has amongst the lowest electricity 9 rates in the whole developed world. Of all the major 10 electric utilities in the whole developed world, 11 we've got the lowest rates or amongst the lowest 12 rates. And a good part of the reason for that is 13 we've had profitable exports and Wuskwatim would 14 allow us to continue doing that. But there are other 15 benefits as well. 16 One other I'll mention briefly is that by 17 exporting hydroelectricity into our neighbouring 18 jurisdictions, we displace coal and natural gas and 19 that reduces greenhouse gas emission and other 20 emissions as well. And we see that from a global 21 point of view being a large benefit. 22 Moving on to Wuskwatim will provide clean 23 renewable energy. We've had a design for Wuskwatim 24 that was already mentioned where we have reduced the 25 flooding so there's very little flooding at 2966 1 Wuskwatim. We've had a number of other important 2 parts of our design to minimize the environmental 3 impacts including how we're going to operate it. 4 We've had a partnership arrangement with NCN to make 5 sure it's designed properly and that there's going to 6 be local benefits. Not just NCN but also to others 7 in the north. So we see this as being a very clean 8 renewable energy project and we've got the whole 9 Environmental Impact Statement that speaks about that 10 and we'll have a presentation following this one that 11 deals with that. 12 Whenever one is doing an investment, one 13 always has to look at the risks. We've done an 14 extensive risk assessment for Wuskwatim and concluded 15 and confirmed that the risks are very few for 16 Wuskwatim. There is a relatively low risk for 17 Wuskwatim and any of the risks that are there are 18 quite manageable. 19 The next point, the fourth point, is a bit of 20 a byproduct but it is still an important one. And 21 that is that proceeding with Wuskwatim will provide 22 benefits and economic stimulus to all Manitobans 23 including those in the north and especially northern 24 Aboriginal people. And so we see this as providing 25 major benefits. We're going to have, for example, in 2967 1 our special emphasis with Northern Aboriginal people, 2 we're going to have a pre-project training program. 3 That's already beginning. There's going to be 4 employment preference provisions on the project. 5 We're going to have business opportunities for people 6 in the north. And again, we have the partnership 7 with NCN which provides direct benefits. So we see 8 this as being an economic stimulus for Manitobans. 9 Moving on to the other part of the Need and 10 Alternatives is the Alternatives. Manitoba Hydro, on 11 an ongoing basis, we look at the full range of 12 possible electricity resources we could add in the 13 province. And we have concluded that there are a few 14 that are the most environmentally and economically 15 attractive to pursue. 16 Mr. Adams referred earlier to PowerSmart or 17 Conservation. We have been active for over 10 years 18 in promoting conservation in Manitoba and we are in 19 the process of expanding that and are looking at even 20 expanding it more than we are going to. So we view 21 PowerSmart or Conservation as something very good in 22 Northern and Southern Manitoba and we're looking at 23 doing more of that. 24 We look at alternative energy and one that's 25 the most prominent right now is wind generation. We 2968 1 have a commitment to proceed with around 250 2 megawatts of wind and if there was even more wind 3 that was economic, we would proceed with that as 4 well. 5 We have a large system already. You're 6 familiar with some of the generation in the north. 7 You've got transmission and we are looking at, 8 wherever we can, improving the efficiency of that 9 existing system so that we can get more power out of 10 it and without having significant impacts or huge 11 costs. And so we're looking at that as the third 12 area of energy. 13 And we look at other new generation. We look 14 at hydro, we look at coal generation, gas generation, 15 very briefly nuclear, not very much there. And we 16 look at a range of other new generation. We have 17 concluded that hydro is the most attractive out of 18 those and that Wuskwatim is the most attractive out 19 of the hydro. 20 So we have concluded that proceeding with more 21 conservation, improvements in the efficiency of our 22 existing system, alternative energy, particularly 23 wind, and Hydro, and here particularly Wuskwatim, are 24 the four legs of an economically and environmentally 25 diverse portfolio that we are proceeding with. 2969 1 So a bit of background. We've got a lot of 2 generation in Manitoba. Why do we need more? So 3 this graph gives some explanation of what we're doing 4 with our energy in the province, electrical energy. 5 At the bottom, we're going from 2006 out to 2038. 6 And it's a graph of the energy in the province, 7 electrical energy used or consumed. So it's going 8 from 17,000 gigawatt hours to 33,000 gigawatt hours. 9 And those numbers are very hard for anybody to get a 10 sense of what are these gigawatt hours? 11 Wuskwatim is around one and a half thousand 12 gigawatt hours. You can see the distance from this 13 line to this line is how much dependable energy 14 Wuskwatim would produce. So you can get a sense of 15 the scale on this graph. 16 So what this graph shows, starting off with is 17 what load do we have in the province from the 18 electricity that's used in the province by the lights 19 here, by Inco, by all the other uses of electricity 20 in the province. And you can see it's this line 21 here, and that's our forecast for into the future. 22 And it's a pretty boring straight line. Reality is 23 it will be faster in some years, slower, it will be 24 up and down, uncertain, but that's sort of an average 25 long-term forecast. 2970 1 And then on top of that, we have to plan for 2 the exports that Manitoba Hydro is already committed 3 to, particularly in the United States but not just 4 the United States. And that's this over here. You 5 can see the exports are on top of our domestic load 6 and these are the contracts we have already signed, 7 not ones we're thinking about, not ones we're 8 negotiating with, the ones that are already committed 9 and signed. And you can see out around 2017 there is 10 very little export committed after that. 11 So essentially after 2017, what we have to 12 plan for is the domestic load in Manitoba, not 13 exports, although we could commit more exports later 14 on. 15 Then this line here shows what is the supply 16 in Manitoba today and into the future from our 17 existing system and the Power Smart we're putting in 18 and the other things we're already committed to 19 doing. You can see it's higher than our exports and 20 our Manitoba load here. So we have some surplus 21 energy still that we can still export. And Mr. 22 Cormie still makes sales on a day-to-day or 23 month-to-month or year-to-year basis on exports. 24 But you can see that the supply in Manitoba 25 actually shows itself going down and then more or 2971 1 less flattening out. And what happens around here, 2 around 2018 is that we have coal units in the south, 3 a unit at Brandon. We have natural gas-fired units. 4 We have two at Selkirk and we have two at Brandon as 5 well and they are assumed to retire starting around 6 2017/18. 7 The other thing is we have some import 8 arrangements that are really partly tied up with our 9 exports where we can import energy from outside the 10 province if we're in a drought. And some of those 11 end as well although we keep some going forever. 12 So you see there's a reduction in our supply 13 at the same time as our load is coming up. And 14 around 2020, they cross over. That means if we have 15 no more exports that we commit that around 2020, we 16 would need to put in a new supply in Manitoba to make 17 sure that if there's a drought, we can meet the load 18 in Manitoba. And our studies have shown consistently 19 that Wuskwatim is the best next generation supply to 20 do that. 21 Now, what we are also proposing though is to 22 not just build Wuskwatim in 2020 for domestic load 23 but also to advance it for export. So that's why we 24 show here Wuskwatim coming in in 2010. And you can 25 see that we then have that Wuskwatim additional 2972 1 energy is essentially available for export and then 2 after 2020, it's available to use for load in 3 Manitoba. 4 So what have we learned from this graph? Two 5 things; that over time, the exports are going to get 6 smaller as our supply goes down and our load goes up 7 and over time, we're going to have less and less 8 exports; and secondly, that we're going to need 9 additional supply down the road. And Wuskwatim can 10 fulfil both of those roles. 11 So that was what Wuskwatim could do. But why 12 build Wuskwatim? Why not build something else? 13 This is a graph talking about some of the 14 other -- the main other options that we have looked 15 at, that Manitoba Hydro has looked at. And what 16 we're showing here is the cost of building each one 17 of these sources of supply in a cents per kilowatt 18 hour. 19 And what we do, and this is a fairly simple 20 calculation we do for screening purposes. We take 21 the capital cost of the project, we take the 22 operation cost, the maintenance cost, if you're using 23 coal or gas, the fuel cost, any taxes, transmission 24 cost, environmental mitigation community compensation 25 cost, we take all those together and do what's called 2973 1 a life cycle analysis. And also, the profit you 2 would have to have if you built the project. You 3 take all of those together and divide them by the 4 energy and what you get is the cents per kilowatt 5 hour. 6 Now before I go any further, I should explain 7 that this is not what you'd want to do to make a 8 final decision to proceed because you have to do a 9 more full-scale analysis that has other factors in it 10 like what are the system costs? If you take one of 11 these resources and put them on the system, what 12 happens to the rest of your system? How do you have 13 to operate it? Is there room on the tie lines for 14 more export? What will the export rates be? A whole 15 bunch of issues. And so what we do is a screening 16 analysis with this kind of information. And then we 17 take a few of those and do a much more detailed 18 analysis which has these other factors in it. 19 But this is useful as a starting point because 20 you can figure out which are the ones that are the 21 most important to look at. 22 And we start off with what's called Power 23 Smart or demand-side management, DSM. It's the 24 lowest cost resource that we can find in Manitoba. 25 So we're doing all that is low cost in Manitoba. If 2974 1 you wanted to do more DSM above what we're looking at 2 here, the costs would be higher. So these are the 3 costs for what we have done or are doing or are 4 planning on doing. 5 Then we move to the next one and that's new 6 hydro. And we've got a range there of 6.6 cents to 7 7.6 cents. Those are the costs for Wuskwatim, 8 Conawapa and Gull. Wuskwatim is the lowest cost of 9 the three and that's the one we're focusing on and we 10 find it the most attractive out of the hydro right 11 now. 12 If we move on to wind generation, there's 13 uncertainty in wind costs for a number of factors. 14 One of them is how much wind are you going to have? 15 So this is the cost for wind generation for if you 16 were putting in wind generation that had a 25 per 17 cent capacity factor to a 40 per cent capacity 18 factor. And there's other factors that affect it as 19 well, but if we can just focus on that for now. You 20 can see they're roughly the same cost but this does 21 not include the cost of taking the wind which is 22 uncertain. You don't know if the wind energy is 23 going to be available today or not or tomorrow of 24 firming up that wind. And there's a significant cost 25 to doing it. 2975 1 So it's an apples and oranges comparison here 2 and you have to throw in these firming costs and 3 system costs to be able to compare with the hydro. 4 But it tells you there is some good potential here. 5 And we have committed to proceeding with 250 6 megawatts of wind. 7 So these three resources plus improving our 8 existing system we've determined are the main ones to 9 look at. But we could have looked at other ones and 10 we did look at other ones. 11 Putting in new gas generation in Manitoba, 12 there's different ways of doing it. The cost is 13 going to depend on what will natural gas cost. No 14 one knows what natural gas cost is going to be down 15 the road. These assume that natural gas costs will 16 be around 3 and a half dollars per million BTUs. It 17 turns out that the gas cost over the next year, say 18 one year from now, is around $6.00 per million BTU. 19 So it will be much higher than what we've got here. 20 However, we expect gas prices will come down but 21 probably not as low as we've used here, somewhat 22 higher. So the gas generation is fairly expensive. 23 Plus there will also be environmental costs from the 24 emissions from the natural gas that would make the 25 gas generation more costly. 2976 1 It's even more true for coal generation. We 2 have got coal on here. What we do at Manitoba Hydro 3 is no one knows what the environmental regulation 4 down the road is going to be. So we start with a 5 business as usual. We say what are the rules that 6 are already in place? What are the laws that are 7 already in place? Say what are the costs of building 8 gas generation or coal generation either in Manitoba 9 or in export jurisdictions? So we do a business as 10 usual. 11 But then we say if things are going to get 12 probably more environmentally stringent down the road 13 in the future, we don't know how quickly or how much, 14 so we do a few different scenarios particularly for 15 greenhouse gas regulation. And that increases the 16 cost. That's another reason why there's some 17 uncertainty as to what the costs are going to be. 18 And we take that into account. And then we also do 19 the same when looking at our export market. 20 And when we look into the export market, we 21 know that if you have more environmental stringency 22 in the future, there will be less coal built, less 23 coal, more natural gas, more wind, more other 24 sources. But in the end, what Wuskwatim will be 25 competing with would be gas generation or coal 2977 1 generation mainly. 2 Now there's other sources, biomass, fuel 3 cells, photovoltaic, nuclear, whatever, we have 4 screened those out as being something worth 5 developing in Manitoba. 6 So what are the conclusions we have drawn in 7 our economic analyses on Wuskwatim? First of all, 8 that Wuskwatim is a very economic project 9 particularly given that it's a relatively low level 10 of risk. Secondly, we've done extensive risk 11 sensitivities and determined that Wuskwatim's 12 economics are robust with respect to the 13 sensitivities, whether there's drought, low export 14 prices, higher capital cost, a whole range of 15 sensitivities we've done. 16 The third conclusion is, and there's been a 17 lot of discussion in our process the last three weeks 18 and early in the interrogatories, if you built a 19 whole bunch of more wind instead of the 250 and put a 20 whole bunch of more DSM, you wouldn't need Wuskwatim. 21 We have looked at what is the maximum amount 22 of DSM and wind that could reasonably be economic as 23 a sensitivity and upper bound and determine that 24 Wuskwatim would still be economic and its economics 25 will only be slightly reduced. So we're confident 2978 1 you could proceed with all the economic wind DSM and 2 Wuskwatim and all three would still be economic. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: What's DSM, Mr. Wojczynski, for 4 everybody here? 5 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Yes. I'm sorry, I slip into 6 technical jargon. DSM is the energy conservation or 7 Power Smart. 8 So those are the economic conclusions. And I 9 have mentioned earlier we also have to look at what 10 about Manitoba Hydro itself? What will happen to the 11 rates for the customers in Manitoba? Will the 12 company still have a strong financial stability? 13 And we've done extensive looking at that and 14 concluded that there will be no adverse effects on 15 Manitoba Hydro's financial stability as a result of 16 investing in Wuskwatim. We have to look at the debt 17 ratio, the debt equity ratio. It will not be 18 significantly impacted. They are negligible. And 19 also at our net income, the earlier years of the 20 project when it's starting up. 21 Later on in the later years of the project, 22 we'll have the revenues from the project so we're not 23 worried about the debt ratio later on. It's the 24 earlier years when you're starting up with Wuskwatim 25 that you're most concerned with debt and net income. 2979 1 And in those earlier years, there will not be any 2 additional rate increases due to Wuskwatim. 3 In the long term, we get the benefits and we 4 get improved long-term financial performance from 5 Manitoba Hydro's share of the Wuskwatim project. And 6 our prediction is that there will be customer rate 7 savings. Assuming that the profits from Wuskwatim go 8 into rate reductions, that the rates will go down 9 starting six to eight years after the project starts 10 and the rate reductions will continue after that. 11 So overall, we have concluded that Wuskwatim 12 is a very economically and financially attractive 13 project and that it doesn't preclude building any 14 other projects that are viable and that it's the best 15 project for us to be seeding with at this time. 16 Thank you. 17 Our next presentation is going to be dealing 18 with the Environmental Impact Statement. And Cam 19 Osler from Inter Group is going to be starting with 20 that presentation. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wojczynski, it's 20 to 3:00 22 and I know we wanted to go through the whole 23 presentation because you have to change the set-up a 24 bit but after Mr. Osler, there will still be other 25 presentations I gather. So maybe we should stop for 2980 1 a moment here and have a break. So let's take a 15 2 minute break here. 3 4 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 2:42 P.M. 5 AND RECONVENED AT 3:00 P.M.) 6 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Can everybody please 8 find a chair as quickly as possible. For those of 9 you who wanted coffee and found out there was none 10 when you got there, some is being made and there 11 will be some after a short while. Give it 15, 20 12 minutes, then you can go at any time after that. 13 We will continue with the presentations from the 14 proponents, Manitoba Hydro and NCN. And I believe 15 it is Mr. Osler that continues at this point. 16 MR. OSLER: My name is Cam Osler. I'm 17 going to present on the environmental impact 18 statements now which are the other sets of 19 documents with regard to the Wuskwatim projects. 20 The environmental impact statements were prepared 21 by Manitoba Hydro and NCN and they were assisted 22 by a team of, environmental management team, that 23 reported to both Manitoba Hydro and NCN. I'm 24 going to deal first with the integrated approach 25 elements of the environmental impact statements 2981 1 prepared for the Wuskwatim Generation Project and 2 also for the Wuskwatim Transmission Project. 3 To start with, the environmental 4 impacts statements, or EIS as they are often 5 called, were prepared in accordance with the EIS 6 guidelines that Mr. Strachan laid out to you 7 earlier that were prepared by the two governments. 8 These guidelines set out the information that is 9 required by the Government agencies, the Federal 10 and Provincial Government agencies. They provide 11 a project description and the refinement of that 12 description as we progress. When we start off we 13 do not know where the routes will be for the 14 transmission lines or for the road, for example. 15 During the course of the work, after the 16 guidelines emerged, we refined the project 17 description through a process of consultation and 18 analysis, to the point where we end up with a 19 preferred route for the transmission lines, and a 20 preferred route for the access road to the site. 21 Other elements of the description of what this 22 project is were similarly refined as we worked 23 along. 24 The EIS also provides an assessment by 25 the environmental components. Now, the 2982 1 environmental components are the aspects that are 2 laid out in the guidelines of the environment that 3 we are supposed to study. The physical 4 environment, the aquatic environment and the 5 terrestrial environment, the socioeconomic or 6 people environment and the heritage resources. 7 In each one of these environments, the 8 EISs look at what is the existing situation before 9 the projects occur and would occur without these 10 projects anyway. What is the effect of these 11 projects on each of these environments? How would 12 it be different today and in the future with these 13 projects? What types of measures can be taken by 14 the proponents to mitigate, to address the effects 15 that are adverse, to make them better, either in 16 their planning or after they get the projects up 17 and running if they learn that they are causing 18 problems contrary to the predictions or not even 19 foreseen. 20 Cumulative effects, which is looking 21 at the effects of this project in combination with 22 other projects past, current and future. Residual 23 effects, which is a term for what is the net 24 result after we looked at all of these things and 25 looked at all of the mitigation measures we should 2983 1 take. And environmental monitoring, meaning what 2 should we do prudently to monitor the outcomes so 3 that we can test what we have been saying would 4 happen, and we can look for unforeseen things that 5 we didn't say would happen, and we can manage the 6 process in an intelligent way as the projects are 7 developed, constructed and operated. 8 All of these activities in the EIS 9 were done with ongoing public consultation and 10 involvement throughout each of the stages and as a 11 key input to the discussion and the assessment 12 process. The EISs and the environment assessment 13 process incorporated local and traditional 14 knowledge as well as scientific information as 15 required by the guidelines. Local and traditional 16 knowledge was an essential part of the planning 17 and the environment assessment. The planning 18 meaning the selection of routes or the other 19 choices that had to be made in the planning 20 process, and the assessment being what I just 21 described. 22 Now traditional knowledge, this 23 Commission received information from various 24 people during the meetings that it held in 25 February 2002 about traditional knowledge, and 2984 1 there were different definitions that different 2 First Nations and different people have advanced. 3 NCN has put on the record in these statements its 4 own definition of traditional knowledge. 5 Traditional local knowledge, as we 6 approach it from our perspective, our attitude has 7 been one of respect towards the people who have 8 such knowledge and towards the knowledge that they 9 offer to the process. Traditional knowledge can 10 involve both personal knowledge and collective 11 knowledge. It can involve experience. It can 12 involve observations. It can involve values. It 13 does not necessarily in the way in which it has 14 been used by NCN mean it has to be just something 15 that comes from ages and ages of experience. It 16 could also be modern. It can be traditional or it 17 can be modern. We have taken this approach and 18 used it wherever we can throughout the 19 environmental assessment process, from the 20 information that the people have provided to us. 21 In the case of NCN information was 22 shared by them with the study teams and with 23 Manitoba Hydro. Their own traditional knowledge 24 interview study was done with their elders and 25 with their members. NCN members also worked with 2985 1 the study scientists doing the field work. They 2 have been doing this since the beginning of the 3 process in discussions with Manitoba Hydro and 4 they have been doing it actively in setting the 5 scope for our studies and things we should focus 6 on, and they have been doing it in terms of their 7 review of the results of our studies and reports 8 to this Commission and to the governments. 9 Information was also provided by 10 others beyond NCN, ongoing public consultation and 11 involvement activities beyond NCN took place with 12 First Nations and Aboriginal people. And one of 13 the focus points for our consultation was with 14 these groups. Also we met with local Government 15 such as Thompson and The Pas. We also met with 16 potentially affected stakeholders and resource 17 users such as trappers and fishers. Of course our 18 whole process also addressed this information to 19 and received inputs from the general public. 20 In summary, public consultation and 21 involvement as required by the guidelines was an 22 essential and integral part of the assessment 23 process for these EIS studies. Since 1997, as I 24 have just said, NCN has been actively involved 25 with Manitoba Hydro in all aspects of planning for 2986 1 these two projects. The public involvement 2 process, though, has been involving early and open 3 conversations and information with others, not 4 just with NCN. It has tried to provide 5 information about the projects, and to receive 6 views and opinions from people about the projects 7 and about the ways of consulting with them. 8 This process has a focus on Aboriginal 9 and First Nations in potentially affected areas 10 but it also in general had a focus on those that 11 could be potentially affected by either the 12 generation project or the transmission project. 13 Since 2001 we have had five rounds or stages of 14 public consultation and involvement beyond NCN. 15 We have provided extensive opportunities to people 16 to receive information and to provide input. We 17 have done this not only through website 18 information to the general public, but through 19 open houses and community meetings throughout the 20 many communities in the area along the Burntwood 21 and the Nelson and along the transmission routes 22 that were described to you earlier. This process 23 of discussion with people has lead to information 24 being provided to us that we have used in the 25 planning process. Particularly in transmission 2987 1 routing, and in the case of NCN, in the road and 2 selection of the access road route. 3 Since the EISs were filed we also had 4 a workshop for the various participants of the CEC 5 process when they were just getting started to 6 give them a chance to get up to speed quickly with 7 the various EIS information. 8 This process has been going on for 9 four years that lead to the EIS that you see 10 today, and the environmental effects that we are 11 talking about really are the end result that we 12 see happening when you compare the world as it 13 would unfold in each one of these environments 14 with the projects versus the situation that would 15 occur without the projects. 16 One of the things that we look at in 17 doing that is cumulative effects. And the 18 cumulative effects assessment was an integral part 19 of the overall EIS effects assessment. What do 20 cumulative effects look at? They look at all of 21 the effects that are likely to result from the 22 Wuskwatim projects when they are anticipated to 23 occur in combination with other projects or 24 activities that have been or will be carried out. 25 The will be carried out is an interesting issue. 2988 1 We don't just talk about hypothetical projects, we 2 are talking about projects that have a high 3 likelihood of being carried out, that are known to 4 be in the works right now, or that are very likely 5 to be carried out in the relatively near future. 6 In doing this process of looking at 7 cumulative effects, we considered local as well as 8 traditional knowledge. Our view of cumulative 9 effects assessment is an environmental impact 10 assessment done well. We do not view cumulative 11 effects assessment as some special, unique or 12 separate exercise. 13 In doing our approach with these EIS 14 studies, past and current projects and activities 15 were considered as part of the existing 16 environments, the situation that would emerge 17 without the projects. When we looked at future 18 projects and activities, we scoped them into our 19 studies by looking at the factors that I just 20 described. In the case of Manitoba Hydro projects 21 we looked at projects that were reasonably likely 22 to emerge and start construction within the next 23 five to ten years. Scoping was based on the 24 potential for overlapping pathways. Now when we 25 look at the effects of the Wuskwatim projects, we 2989 1 are essentially looking at pathways for effects, 2 how can this project, this transmission or this 3 generation station start to have an impact on the 4 environment? How can it start to have an effect 5 on the physical environment and maybe the aquatic 6 environment and then the terrestrial environment 7 and then ultimately on people in the area? So we 8 looked for pathways from these projects that might 9 overlap