3112 1 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION 2 3 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 4 Volume 13 5 6 Including List of Participants 7 8 9 10 Hearing 11 12 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 13 14 Presiding: 15 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair 16 Kathi Kinew 17 Harvey Nepinak 18 Robert Mayer 19 Terry Sargeant 20 21 Tuesday, March 23, 2004 22 St. Lawrence Hall 23 Thompson, Manitoba 24 25 3113 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Clean Environment Commission: 4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman 5 Terry Sargeant Member 6 Harvey Nepinak Member 7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member 8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission 9 Rory Grewar Staff 10 CEC Advisors: 11 Mel Falk 12 Dave Farlinger 13 Jack Scriven 14 Jim Sandison 15 Jean McClellan 16 Brent McLean 17 Kyla Gibson 18 19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation: 20 Chief Jerry Primrose 21 Elvis Thomas 22 Campbell MacInnes 23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux 24 25 3114 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Manitoba Conservation: 4 Larry Strachan 5 6 Manitoba Hydro/NCN: 7 Doug Bedford, Counsel 8 Bob Adkins, Counsel 9 Marvin Shaffer 10 Ed Wojczynski 11 Ken Adams 12 Carolyn Wray 13 Ron Mazur 14 Lloyd Kuczek 15 Cam Osler 16 Stuart Davies 17 David Hicks 18 Elizabeth Hicks 19 George Rempel 20 David Cormie 21 Alex Fleming 22 Marvin Shaffer 23 Blair McMahon 24 25 3115 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 4 5 Presenters: 6 Wayne Schroeder - Inco 7 Angus Dysart - Private 8 Leslie Baker - Private 9 tim Johnston - North Central Development 10 Bill Comaskey - Mayro of Thompson 11 Darryl Linklater - Private 12 Charlie Hart - Private 13 Bruce Krentz - NorMan Development 14 Rodney Spence - Private 15 Chris Baker - Private 16 William Anderson - Private 17 Leslie Baker - Private 18 Romona Neckoway - Private 19 Keith Henry Fortin - Private 20 Fred Fitzer - Private 21 Henry Garrick - Private 22 23 24 25 3116 1 2 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 3 4 Number Page 5 6 OTH 1005: Mr. Schroeder's statement, Inco, 7 Thompson, Manitoba to the Clean 8 Environment Commission, regarding 9 Wuskwatim Generation and 10 Transmission Projects application 3132 11 DRSIL-1003: Presentation of Angus Dysart 3181 12 DRSIL-1004: Correspondence from Ken 13 Agar, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, 14 February 19, 2004, re Manitoba Hydro's 15 quarterly report of reserve 16 residents' employment from 17 specified dates 3182 18 DRSIL-1005: Engineering Poverty: 19 Colonialism and Hydroelectric 20 Development in 21 Northern Manitoba 3183 22 MH/NC1025: Correspondence from Mr. W.E. 23 Thomas to Vern Anderson, March 9, 2004, 24 re Wuskwatim Generation and 25 Transmission Project 3183 3117 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 NUMBER PAGE 3 4 OTH 1006: NorMan Regional 5 Development Corporation Wuskwatim 6 presentation to the Clean Environment 7 Commission, Bruce Krentz 3200 8 OTH 1007: Mr. Spence's presentation 9 to the hearings 3209 10 OTH 1008: Mr. Anderson's presentation on 11 behalf of Granville Lake 3239 12 OTH-1009: Presentation to Clean 13 Environment Commission on Trapline # 18 as 14 presented by Fred Fitzner 3293 15 OTH-1010: Presentation to the Clean 16 Environment Commission on Trapline # 18 as 17 presented by Henry Garrick 3293 18 OTH-1011: North Central Development 19 presentation to Manitoba Clean Environment 20 Commission 3315 21 OTH-1012: Wuskwatim Generation and 22 Transmission Projects presentation by 23 Mayor Bill Comaskey, City of 24 Thompson 3345 25 3118 1 2 3 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS 4 5 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE 6 7 NCN 53: Advise what percentage of NCN 8 community would have relied on fishing and trapping 9 and been affected by the change in trapping and 10 fishing prior to signing the NFA in 1977 3221 11 12 NCN 54: Advise if there are any 13 supplemental agreements to the Northern Flood 14 Agreement 3224 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3119 1 Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2 Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: We would like to begin 5 as quickly as possible. You all have had a chance 6 for coffee. If you haven't, you will get one 7 later. 8 Good morning, welcome to all of you. 9 We will continue a portion of what we started last 10 night with presentations, and if we get to finish 11 the presentations -- there are a number of them, 12 we will sit this morning and again this afternoon, 13 and if time permits, we will go back to questions 14 to the Manitoba Hydro and NCN panel. 15 I call upon, to begin this morning, I 16 call upon Wayne Schroeder. Good morning. 17 MR. SCHROEDER: My name is Wayne 18 Schroeder. 19 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Schroeder, are you 20 aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to 21 knowingly mislead this Commission? 22 MR. SCHROEDER: I am aware. 23 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 24 only the truth in proceedings before this 25 Commission? 3120 1 MR. SCHROEDER: I do. 2 3 WAYNE SCHROEDER: SWORN 4 5 MR. GREWAR: Sir, did you have any 6 sort of written presentation that you wanted to 7 have in front of them, or not? 8 MR. SCHROEDER: I have a copy and I 9 will distribute it. 10 MR. GREWAR: Now would be good, or did 11 you want to -- 12 MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman and 13 members of the Commission, my name is Wayne 14 Schroeder and I am a chief power engineer for Inco 15 in Thompson. I would like to thank you for the 16 opportunity to address you today. 17 Inco in Thompson is a nickel mine and 18 a finished nickel processing facility. The raw 19 material is fully processed here in the North. We 20 employ 1500 people directly in Thompson. We are 21 located north of the 55th parallel. Inco produces 22 more than 100 million pounds per year of copper 23 and nickel, primarily nickel. We have made 24 substantial long term investments in Manitoba and 25 view stability and predictability is key to our 3121 1 operations. We add value to a Manitoba resource 2 for shipment around the world, strengthening the 3 local, Provincial, and Federal economies. 4 Our submission is not of a technical 5 nature, but one of an entity that will be affected 6 by the development, and as such, an interested 7 party. 8 Inco is aware of and involved in the 9 conservation of resources, including energy. We 10 participate in the Voluntary Challenge Registry. 11 Mining companies overall have committed, through 12 the VCR, to a 1 percent per year reduction on a 13 per unit basis from 1995 to through to 2005. For 14 our energy reduction and management efforts, Inco 15 is a 2003 gold medal winner for the fourth year in 16 a row. 17 One of the methods that we use to 18 reduce our energy footprint is called demand-side 19 management. Our interim demand-side management 20 program is used to coordinate load management. 21 This attempts to shift load to reduce peaks and 22 valleys to flatten our demand. This helps Inco as 23 well as Manitoba Hydro. Another method we use for 24 energy management in Manitoba Hydro's PowerSmart 25 program. Inco is the largest industrial user of 3122 1 the PowerSmart program, and it is part of our 2 energy reduction efforts. Internally, we are 3 currently running an energy conservation program 4 called Power Play. Inco actively participates in 5 varied energy conservation initiatives. 6 We at Inco participate in a local 7 environmental liaison committee to involve local 8 residents in partnership to address community 9 environmental concerns. In today's world, the 10 environment is an integral part of doing business, 11 as evidenced by just a few of our activities 12 mentioned. 13 Inco in Thompson supplies the potable 14 water for the citizens of Thompson. It is a 15 public trust and we take that trust very 16 seriously. This responsibility places us in a 17 unique position with respect to the water 18 resources of the Burntwood River system and the 19 quality of that water. My department operates the 20 water treatment plant. I am aware of no issues at 21 this time that would compromise the operation of 22 the plant from this proposed project. 23 I want to state that based on a brief 24 review, Inco is supportive of the proposed 25 Wuskwatim development. The project appears to 3123 1 provide long term benefits to northern residents 2 and to the stability of the generation system 3 overall. The risks appear to be manageable, and 4 we expect that Manitoba Hydro will manage them 5 under the watchful eye of the CEC and PUB. 6 Enhancing other supply options such as demand-side 7 management and non utility generation does not 8 detract from the opportunity that Wuskwatim can 9 provide to domestic ratepayers. 10 Past projects have seen most, if not 11 all, of the benefits flow to the south, leaving 12 northern residents out of the economic gains 13 afforded to the south from that development. The 14 difference in the standard of living between the 15 north and south is largely the result of economic 16 opportunity. There are few legitimate ways to 17 sustainably develop long-term jobs and revenue in 18 the north. This is particularly true of First 19 Nations communities, who with this project have 20 the opportunity as full partners should they 21 choose to participate. This would strengthen the 22 northern economy and provide meaningful employment 23 and economic stability to local residents. 24 This Commission needs to balance the 25 interests of many parties, a difficult job. I am 3124 1 a long-term resident of the north, and like most 2 Inco employees, my children and I breathe the air, 3 drink the water, swim in the lakes. We hike, 4 fish, work, and live here, and will in the end be 5 the people whose environment is impacted or not 6 impacted, together with all northern residents. 7 Many people have come thousands of miles to try 8 and impact our collective future. I would urge 9 this Commission to give the largest weight to the 10 testimony of northern residents, both for and 11 against. Few projects have as big an opportunity 12 for meaningful northern development with as few 13 new impacts. Were it not to be built, the demand 14 for electricity that will be served by this new 15 generation will turn to coal, fossil fuel, and 16 nuclear power in other jurisdictions that will 17 replace the clean power this project could 18 provide. 19 Inco has not done an economic 20 evaluation of this project. That is a different 21 forum. We, however, see this project as a benefit 22 to the Manitoba economy overall. It is a benefit 23 to the northern economy and the people residing in 24 the north. Allowing that the project is rate 25 neutral or better, it seems to be a worthwhile 3125 1 project for the people of the north. Thank you. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 Mr. Sargeant. 4 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you, 5 Mr. Schroeder, it wasn't entirely clear to me, are 6 you speaking today on behalf of Inco or on behalf 7 of yourself? 8 MR. SCHROEDER: I am speaking on 9 behalf of Inco. 10 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Schroeder, you 12 alluded in your presentation to the participation 13 of Inco in demand-side management measures, that 14 you are involved in the Hydro PowerSmart program, 15 that you are running another energy conservation 16 program called Power Play, and that you have been 17 involved since 1995, that you have committed over 18 the years to, as part of the Voluntary Challenge 19 Registry, to reduce your demand on electricity by 20 1 percent per year. Could you give us a sense of 21 how significant that represents in terms of 22 reduction in load demand on the part of Hydro? 23 MR. SCHROEDER: Within Manitoba, 24 summer demand has been reduced by 4 million watts 25 and winter demand has been reduced by 11 million 3126 1 watts. So what that in essence has done is 2 allowed Manitoba Hydro to sell those megawatts of 3 demand to another customer without requiring 4 further generation to be built. It is gaining an 5 efficiency of the electricity that we already 6 produce in this Province. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: These additional watts 8 that have not been used by Hydro represent, I 9 presume, some savings? 10 MR. SCHROEDER: They represent savings 11 to Inco and they represent the opportunity for 12 Manitoba Hydro to sell them, presumably to the 13 export market. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: And I am not asking for 15 a specific answer, you may not be even allowed to 16 give one, but would you give us a ballpark figure 17 of how much that represents? 18 MR. SCHROEDER: I wouldn't have that 19 figure immediately available at this time, but it 20 could be provided to you, if you were to contact 21 Inco, we would be able to provide it if you 22 require. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you. 24 Questions? 25 MR. MAYER: Mr. Schroeder, I know the 3127 1 answer to the question but I am not entirely sure 2 that everybody else does. You will confirm that 3 virtually your whole smelter and refinery is 4 operated with electricity, is that correct? 5 MR. SCHROEDER: The Thompson Inco mine 6 site is operated in its entirety with electric 7 means of both heating and processing, with the 8 exception of mine air heating, which is augmented 9 via propane. 10 MR. MAYER: So you smelt the initial 11 product, you smelt it using electric furnaces, you 12 refine it with an electrolyte process? 13 MR. SCHROEDER: That is correct. It 14 might be of note that we also do a great deal of 15 recycling in this process. If there is scrap 16 metal, when a recycling program takes effect, some 17 of those materials find their way back to the 18 smelter for re-melting. So we do a lot of 19 recycling as an inherent part of our process. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you give us an 21 inkling as to how much electricity you use on an 22 average day? 23 MR. SCHROEDER: I could give you a 24 rough estimate of the dollar cost per year and the 25 megawatt hours. It would be about, I believe 3128 1 92 million megawatt hours, and it would be 2 somewhere in the order of $27 million, roughly, 3 for the electrical usage in a year. 4 Just by way of note, if you wish to 5 gauge some measure of demand-side energy 6 conservation results, in 1991 we used 7 172 million watts of demand; this current year we 8 used 150 million watts of demand, and we produced 9 relatively the same volume of nickel for that same 10 amount of energy. So what we have done is found a 11 more efficient way to use the energy that we do 12 have, which helps Manitoba Hydro and ourselves. 13 It saves us costs and it allows Manitoba Hydro a 14 more efficient generation system. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: That is achieved as a 16 result of the commitment that you have made under 17 your Power Play program? 18 MR. SCHROEDER: There are a dozen 19 different programs that we have used of which the 20 Power Play is one. But it is all collectively in 21 regard to a commitment to reduce our energy 22 footprint. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Other 24 questions? 25 MR. DYSART: Good morning. Leslie 3129 1 Dysart Northern Manitoban, South Indian Laker, NCN 2 band member. 3 Mr. Schroeder, I am just wondering 4 about some of the information that you provided us 5 this morning. It seems that Inco has plans to 6 reduce their energy use or power use with the 7 PowerSmart program, demand-side management, and 8 you referred to one other one that I didn't quite 9 catch. Does Inco have long term goals of reducing 10 their energy use? 11 MR. SCHROEDER: Our goal is to use as 12 few resources as possible to produce a finished 13 product. That is both from an economic and an 14 environmental standpoint. In days past there was 15 no impetus on industry to get more efficient, but 16 in today's environment there is. So we do have a 17 long-term intent to be as efficient and as 18 environmentally friendly with our use of energy as 19 we can. That means using as few units as possible 20 to produce energy -- or to produce nickel. 21 MR. DYSART: So you don't have any, I 22 guess, limit -- or not limits -- goals, as far as 23 quantitative goals, a set amount, say within ten 24 years you will reduce energy usage by X amount? 25 MR. SCHROEDER: Our Voluntary 3130 1 Challenge Registry obligation or commitment is to 2 try and reduce the energy used per pound of nickel 3 by 1 percent per year. That is a goal. So our 4 goal on the energy side overall as a company is to 5 reduce energy inputs by 1 percent per year for 6 each pound of product produced. 7 MR. DYSART: That is very commendable. 8 So Inco itself would not see the need for new 9 power? 10 MR. SCHROEDER: Inco is currently 11 served by the existing power grid. Whether that 12 would come from new power or not would be Manitoba 13 Hydro's system call. We are a customer of 14 Manitoba Hydro, and how the energy is generated 15 and where is not something that Inco has any 16 control over or impact on. Manitoba Hydro would 17 be the determining -- the entity that would 18 determine we have enough power for this load or 19 for that load or where it would go. It would not 20 be Inco's purview to make that call. 21 MR. DYSART: With some of your 22 long-term goals, Inco itself in Thompson does not 23 see the need for new power, or will not require 24 new power in the future? 25 MR. SCHROEDER: New power in addition 3131 1 to what we use today? That is not something that 2 I would specifically know. Like all resource 3 based companies, you find a new ore body, and all 4 of a sudden everything is different. If you don't 5 find one, then everything stays the same. So I 6 wouldn't have access to our exploration department 7 or to our long-term planning department's 8 definition of where there might be more ore, or 9 when different processing streams would come on 10 line. Our production changes year-to-year are 11 based on the availability of feed, the grade of 12 nickel, and the myriad of different components 13 that would determine long term whether we would 14 increase power or not. But our obligation, when 15 we deal with power, is to confer with Manitoba 16 Hydro and let them know what our short-term needs 17 are, and it is their purview to decide where that 18 power comes from and how it is delivered. 19 MR. DYSART: I just have one comment. 20 If Inco doesn't find new minerals, everything 21 doesn't stay the same. I just refer to past 22 residents of Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? 24 Seeing none, thank you, Mr. Schroeder, for making 25 your presentation here today. 3132 1 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 2 enter Mr. Schroeder's statement, Inco, Thompson 3 Manitoba to the Clean Environment Commission, 4 regarding Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission 5 Projects application as exhibit OTH-1005. 6 7 (EXHIBIT OTH 1005: Mr. Schroeder's 8 statement, Inco, Thompson, Manitoba to 9 the Clean Environment Commission, 10 regarding Wuskwatim Generation and 11 Transmission Projects application) 12 13 THE CHAIRMAN: I now call upon Angus 14 Dysart. 15 First, I would like you to introduce 16 yourselves, and I will ask Mr. Grewar to swear you 17 in after. 18 MR. DYSART: My name is Angus Dysart, 19 person of Displaced Residents of South Indian 20 Lake, referred to as DRSIL. 21 MR. TRONIAK: Good morning, my name is 22 Eric Troniak. I provide consulting support to 23 Displaced Residents of South Indian Lake, and 24 Mr. Dysart has asked me to come here with him 25 today. 3133 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Grewar. 2 MR. GREWAR: Gentlemen, are you both 3 aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to 4 knowingly mislead this Commission? 5 MR. DYSART: Yes, we do. 6 MR. TRONIAK: Yes. 7 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 8 only the truth in proceedings before this 9 Commission? 10 MR. DYSART: Yes. 11 MR. TRONIAK: Yes. 12 13 ANGUS DYSART AND ERIC TRONIAK: SWORN 14 15 MR. GREWAR: Excuse me, 16 Mr. Chairman -- was there any documentation that 17 you wanted the Commissioners to have access to? 18 MR. TRONIAK: I do have copies, a few 19 copies of Mr. Dysart's speaking notes. 20 Unfortunately, I don't have the 30 copies that the 21 Commission would like, since we are a non-funded 22 participant, but I do have some copies, and some 23 copies of material that are referenced in 24 Mr. Dysart's speech. I could provide those to you 25 right now if you would like. 3134 1 MR. GREWAR: That would be helpful, if 2 I could have them. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. You may 4 proceed. 5 MR. DYSART: Good morning once again. 6 My name is Angus Dysart. I am the President of 7 the Association of Displaced Residents of South 8 Indian Lake often referred to DRSIL. I am pleased 9 to have the opportunity to make the presentations 10 on behalf of DRSIL, South Indian Lake. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bedford. 12 MR. BEDFORD: Before we proceed, 13 Mr. Chairman, you will remember that a week ago 14 Dr. Peter Kulchyski testified from the University 15 of Manitoba, and he suggested that he was going to 16 file a paper some days after he testified. I had 17 understood at the time that you said no, we had 18 oral testimony from Dr. Kulchyski and we wouldn't 19 be accepting any papers from him. One of these 20 documents that I have just been handed appears to 21 be the paper Dr. Kulchyski promised, which you 22 indicated you weren't prepared to accept. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this the paper 24 itself? The presentation? 25 MR. BEDFORD: No, not what Mr. Dysart 3135 1 is about to read, but there were three or four 2 additional papers handed to us, and they include 3 this paper by Dr. Kulchyski. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: We will have a closer 5 look at it. My colleagues, looking at this, say 6 this is not the same document that was referred 7 to. So we will have a look at it. 8 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. You will 10 have to, Mr. Dysart, you will have to speak quite 11 a bit louder. I am seeing some people over there 12 that are making signals. 13 MR. DYSART: My name is Angus Dysart. 14 I am President of the Association of Displaced 15 Residents of South Indian Lake, often referred to 16 as DRSIL. I am pleased to have the opportunity to 17 make a presentation on behalf of DRSIL at these 18 Clean Environment Commission hearings for 19 Wuskwatim generation and transmission line 20 projects. I am very pleased to be here and talk 21 to you today in Thompson in front of many other 22 people who have been seriously affected by past 23 hydro development by Manitoba Hydro. However, our 24 association is not happy that those hearings are 25 spending only two days in Thompson for these 3136 1 hearings. More time should be spent in Northern 2 Manitoba to allow the people who are affected by 3 hydro development and have suffered at the hands 4 of Manitoba Hydro to be part of the process. Why 5 are not hearings being held in Nelson House, South 6 Indian Lake, so NCN members there can be heard and 7 see what is going on here? This would also have 8 given this Commission the opportunity to see how 9 past promises of prosperity for us from hydro 10 development have been fulfilled and honoured. Why 11 is so little time and respect been given to those 12 who are paying the price for Manitoba Hydro to 13 make hundreds of millions of dollars? 14 For the record, I am demanding an 15 apology from Jerry Primrose calling me, our 16 association, and others who have concerns or do 17 not want Wuskwatim "economic terrorists." I 18 support Carol Kobliski in her comments on March 19 17, 2004, that this apology should be made to the 20 Commission and to all those who question the 21 project. I know that so many people have talked 22 about this comment and I hope that this apology 23 will put this to rest. 24 I will start by saying a few words 25 about myself and how our association came into 3137 1 being, our current struggle with Manitoba Hydro, 2 Manitoba and Canada for fair and just treatment 3 under the Northern Flood Agreement. Then I will 4 discuss why our association decided to be part of 5 this hearing, and finally our position on the 6 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission line 7 projects. 8 Some 30 years ago I was one of the 9 future generations growing up in South Indian 10 Lake. I remember how it was like growing up in 11 South Indian Lake prior to the Churchill River 12 Diversion. This was a clear pristine lake with 13 sandy beaches, even nicer than Lake of the Woods. 14 My father, Murdo Dysart, provided a 15 good self-sufficient living for us being a 16 commercial fisherman and trapper. I was raised 17 right from the land and most of the members of 18 DRSIL were raised the same way. Before the Hydro 19 projects and the flooding of South Indian Lake, 20 there was abundant high quality fish and fur. 21 South Indian lake was known worldwide for its 22 Export A White Fish that was served in some of the 23 finest restaurants in North America. Now the 24 people of South Indian Lake are warned to limit 25 the fish they eat due to mercury. People are 3138 1 getting sick from eating the fish and drinking the 2 water. 3 The furs were also the highest quality 4 and sold around the world. Despite what Jerry 5 Primrose said to you, it was Manitoba Hydro that 6 destroyed trapping around South Indian Lake and 7 not any outside fur lobby. 8 When Manitoba Hydro was planning to 9 build a dam at Missi Falls and South Channel, they 10 made a lot of promises to the community of South 11 Indian Lake. New housing, running water, and 12 sewer hook-up for everyone were promised. Jobs 13 were promised, and a fair and just settlement for 14 the loss of the land, property and opportunities. 15 The future generation of young people was promised 16 a bright and better way of life by Manitoba Hydro. 17 This was one of many promises broken by Manitoba 18 Hydro and the Government of Manitoba. 19 For example, according to Manitoba 20 Hydro's quarterly report of Reserve Resident's 21 Employment under Article 18.5 of the Northern 22 Flood Agreement for the fiscal year ending 23 December 31, 2003, only two people were employed 24 in South Indian Lake. One was full-time utility 25 worker and the other a casual labour. I do not 3139 1 even know if those two people are even from South 2 Indian Lake. In fact, for Nelson House only 23 3 NCN members were employed with all being in low 4 paying and low skilled labour jobs. In 5 comparison, PCN, Cross Lake, who have not signed 6 Northern Flood Agreement Master Implementation 7 buy-out agreement have 243 people employed, 8 including a number in skilled positions. I have 9 copies of this report which I can file with CEC, 10 Clean Environment Commission, today. 11 None of the promises were kept by 12 Manitoba Hydro and the Government of Manitoba. 13 Many of us suffered great social, economic and 14 psychological harm as a result of the project. 15 This when Manitoba Hydro and the Government of 16 Manitoba continued to reap hundreds of millions of 17 dollars from selling hydroelectricity. Many have 18 suffered and continue to suffer while others 19 prosper on our misery. This includes the over 400 20 members of DRSIL who, like me, who were forced to 21 leave South Indian Lake and our traditional way of 22 life to find a future. To provide further 23 information on South Indian Lake and the impact of 24 hydro development I would like to table with you a 25 paper that was presented on February 23, 2004 3140 1 forum on hydro development held at the University 2 of Winnipeg. This paper is by Dr. Steven Hoffman 3 of St. Thomas University of Minnesota, and it is 4 entitled "Engineering Poverty: Colonialism and 5 Hydroelectric Development in Northern Manitoba." 6 My September 11, 2003 letter to the 7 Clean Environment Commission, which has been 8 placed on record for these hearings, gives a brief 9 background of our association. Like me, our 10 members have been displaced and were forced to 11 move from our home at South Indian Lake due to the 12 flooding and ongoing impacts of the Churchill 13 River Diversion, Churchill/Nelson River Hydro Dam 14 projects. The majority of our over 400 members, 15 around 70 percent, live in Northern Manitoba, with 16 the rest in places like Winnipeg, Brandon, outside 17 of Manitoba. Like me, the majority of us are NCN 18 band members and have serious concerns about the 19 Wuskwatim project, the deals between NCN and 20 Manitoba Hydro, and the things being done to try 21 and get NCN members to agree to it. 22 We currently have six members of our 23 executive chosen by the traditional Aboriginal way 24 of members putting their name forwards and having 25 it discussed and endorsed by members at meetings 3141 1 held throughout Manitoba. The current executive 2 was endorsed at meetings held this past summer in 3 Winnipeg, Thompson, Leaf Rapids, South Indian 4 Lake. We try to hold as many meetings as we can 5 and keep our members informed on what is 6 happening, but it is very difficult when no 7 resources are provided to us for this. 8 Since 1993 our members have been in a 9 struggle with Manitoba Hydro, Manitoba and Canada, 10 to receive fair and just treatment for our claims 11 for compensation under the Northern Flood 12 Agreement. Many of us have suffered property, 13 economic, social, and emotional damage by having 14 our homes at South Indian Lake and way of life 15 largely destroyed by the Hydro project. To date 16 none of our Displaced Residents of South Indian 17 Lake claims have been settled. Manitoba Hydro has 18 done everything it can to tie up our claims and 19 deny us adequate resources to present our claims 20 as we are entitled to under the NFA. For the past 21 two years, there has not even been a NFA 22 arbitrator to deal with our claims and our 23 concerns. I have been informed that they have 24 just recently appointed an arbitrator, retired 25 Judge Ruth Krindle, over the objections of the 3142 1 Pimicikamak Cree Nation of Cross Lake. This 2 person has not yet started work and we have no 3 idea when our claims or issues will even be 4 considered. To us the delay in appointing an 5 arbitrator shows the low regard and respect 6 Manitoba Hydro and the Governments of Manitoba and 7 Canada for the Northern Flood Agreement Treaty. 8 This includes people like us who are trying to get 9 fairness and justice for the environmental, 10 social, and economic harm Manitoba Hydro has 11 inflicted on us. We strongly feel that this is 12 just an example of how Manitoba Hydro and the 13 Governments of Manitoba and Canada are trying to 14 avoid dealing with us fairly and justly. 15 From our experiences, the studies, 16 promises, and assurances of Manitoba Hydro cannot 17 be trusted and relied upon. That includes what 18 happened in South Indian Lake and how Manitoba 19 Hydro, Manitoba, and Canada, have dealt with us 20 over our DRSIL claims. 21 I will not discuss our claims against 22 Manitoba Hydro since I do not have our lawyer here 23 with me. The claims we have filed are individual 24 claims for compensation and I cannot talk about 25 specific claims. Also, the reason I am here today 3143 1 is to talk about our position on the Wuskwatim 2 project and these hearings. 3 We first began following those 4 hearings with the September 30, 2003 hearing in 5 Pimicikamak Cree Nation's motion to expand the 6 Wuskwatim Review to include past hydro projects 7 and their total impacts. Although talking with 8 our lawyer and others who have attended and kept 9 track of the hearings in Winnipeg, I still feel 10 that the Clean Environment Commission should have 11 expanded the scope of those hearings. To limit 12 the scope of those hearings was a decision made by 13 the Clean Environment Commission and we feel that 14 it prevents a true and complete review of the 15 impacts of Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission 16 Line projects. We must recognize and understand 17 what has been done and its impacts before we can 18 have confidence in future development. 19 We feel that a thorough review of past 20 and continuing impacts of the Hydro development in 21 Northern Manitoba should have been done even 22 before a new hydro project was proposed. Manitoba 23 Hydro must address those impacts and do much more 24 than what they are doing now. We want Manitoba 25 Hydro and the Government to clean up the mess they 3144 1 have inflicted on South Indian Lake and other 2 places in the north. We have a number of members 3 from there and of course all of us originally come 4 from there. We also have members of our 5 Association that live in South Indian Lake and we 6 want the environmental mess cleaned up on Southern 7 Indian Lake. This should be done before any other 8 dams like Wuskwatim and transmission lines are 9 built. Manitoba Hydro should not be allowed to 10 continue to make hundreds of millions of dollars 11 on the pain and suffering of others who are 12 affected by the continuing impacts of past hydro 13 development. 14 We hope that this hearing will 15 strongly question Hydro on their claim that 16 Wuskwatim will not affect South Indian Lake and 17 other communities. I remember the false promises 18 and assurances that were made to us in South 19 Indian Lake that low level flooding of Southern 20 Indian Lake would produce little damage that would 21 be managed by Manitoba Hydro. Manitoba Hydro 22 should not be allowed to do what they did to South 23 Indian Lake again. 24 In December 2003, our Association sent 25 a letter to the Clean Environment Commission on a 3145 1 summary of understanding between NCN and Manitoba 2 Hydro. The letter raised a number of questions 3 and concerns we have with it and the upcoming 4 Wuskwatim Project Development Agreement and the 5 vote. I understand that it was sent to all 6 members of the Commission and I will not go over 7 it. I just hope that the questions raised there 8 are dealt with during those hearings. The 9 response provided by NCN Chief and Council to Vern 10 Anderson, the Southern Vice-President of our 11 Association after those hearings started should 12 not be considered a satisfactory response to our 13 questions. We are not satisfied with the lateness 14 of the response, one week after these hearings 15 started, the response is received. A number of 16 questions were not answered or it was stated that 17 they would be answered in the Wuskwatim Project 18 Development Agreement. In the next few weeks we 19 will be going over the response in more detail. 20 I notice that the NCN response to 21 Mr. Anderson has been put in the NCN website. We 22 are also requesting that NCN put Mr. Anderson's 23 December 17, 2003 letter to the Clean Environment 24 Commission on its website so that people can read 25 the two together and get a full picture of our 3146 1 concerns. It is misleading to just include the 2 response and not the letter that contained our 3 questions. 4 I would like to table a paper that 5 supports our concerns with the Wuskwatim Agreement 6 in Principle, Summary of Understanding, and the 7 upcoming Project Development Agreement. On 8 March 16, Dr. Kulchyski made a presentation that 9 dealt with the Wuskwatim SOU. Dr. Kulchyski 10 informed the Clean Environment Commission that he 11 was just finishing the paper, that he was basing 12 his comments on the SOU, and he tabled it with the 13 Clean Environment Commission for review. On 14 behalf of Dr. Kulchyski, I am tabling a final 15 draft of his paper to put on the record for the 16 hearings. In the very near future the paper will 17 be published by the Canadian Centre for Policy 18 Alternatives. 19 In conclusion, we recommend the 20 following: 21 1. No vote on the Wuskwatim PDA be undertaken 22 until all Treaty and Aboriginal issues are 23 satisfactorily dealt with. 24 2. All aspects of the Wuskwatim Project 25 Development Agreement, Limited Partnership 3147 1 Agreement between NCN and Manitoba Hydro, and 2 component side agreements be thoroughly explained 3 to all NCN band members so all are clear on what 4 they mean and what they are agreeing to. These 5 must all be included in the referendum vote. All 6 these documents should be translated in Cree and 7 copies made available to all who request them. 8 3. All outstanding compensation issues and claims 9 of NCN members under the Northern Flood Agreement 10 be settled before any vote on the Wuskwatim PDA. 11 4. All financial information on the Wuskwatim 12 deal and partnership between NCN and Manitoba 13 Hydro be given and explained to NCN members. 14 5. Independent third party legal counsel be 15 retained to explain the Project Development 16 Agreement and other agreements identified in the 17 Wuskwatim SOU to NCN members. This legal counsel 18 should not have represented Manitoba Hydro or have 19 been involved in the negotiation of Wuskwatim 20 Agreement in Principle, Wuskwatim SOU, and the 21 Wuskwatim PDA. 22 6. A set time be established for the Wuskwatim 23 PDA referendum which allows sufficient time, at 24 least three months, for all information provided 25 to be properly explained and discussed in the 3148 1 community. The NCN band membership, and not just 2 Chief Primrose and Council or Manitoba Hydro, 3 should also decide and agree when the vote is to 4 be held. This will be important to heal the 5 wounds, divisions, and hard feelings that have 6 been created by the Wuskwatim project. 7 7. Adequate resources must be provided for those 8 who have concerns about Wuskwatim project and the 9 partnership agreement between NCN and Manitoba 10 Hydro. The Government of Manitoba, Manitoba Hydro 11 and/or NCN Chief and Council should provide 12 adequate funds, e.g. from the 4.2 million annual 13 budget provided to the NCN Community Futures 14 Portfolio, and allow alternative relevant 15 information be provided to the people of NCN prior 16 to the referendum vote. All efforts should be 17 made to enable NCN members to make a reasoned and 18 non-pressured decision on Wuskwatim. 19 8. The Clean Environment Commission should not 20 officially conclude these hearings, and should 21 delay the filing of its recommendations to the 22 Government, until after the Wuskwatim PDA 23 referendum vote is held. This will allow them to 24 take into account the vote and how it was 25 conducted and its report to the Minister of 3149 1 Conservation. 2 9. If Indian Act voting regulations are used for 3 the Wuskwatim PDA Referendum, and not traditional 4 ways led by NCN elders, an expert independent 5 third party such as Elections Canada or Elections 6 Manitoba should oversee all aspects of voting to 7 ensure that it is done fairly and honestly. 8 10. Any vote on the Wuskwatim Project Development 9 Agreement must include all NCN members and the 10 people of South Indian Lake and the Displaced 11 Residents of South Indian Lake. The reserve 12 status issue for South Indian Lake should have no 13 bearing on this. All these people were eligible 14 to vote for the Wuskwatim Agreement in Principle 15 and they should be allowed to continue to 16 participate in the process and be allowed to vote 17 on the Wuskwatim PDA and have their vote counted 18 and recognized. Members of the Association for 19 Displaced Residents of South Indian Lake should 20 not be disqualified from voting by any reserve 21 status deals made by the NCN Chief and Council, 22 South Indian Lake, and the Government of Canada. 23 Thank you. That is it. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dysart. 25 Question, Mr. Mayer? 3150 1 MR. MAYER: Mr. Dysart, are you aware 2 that of your ten recommendations, nine of them 3 deal exclusively with compensation and with the 4 deal, or non-deal as the case may be, between NCN 5 and Hydro? Are you aware of that? 6 MR. DYSART: Yes. 7 MR. MAYER: You are aware that that 8 particular agreement is outside of the 9 jurisdiction or the scope of the hearings of the 10 Clean Environment Commission? 11 MR. DYSART: Yes. 12 MR. MAYER: I take it, therefore, you 13 are bringing it to the Commission as a method of 14 making the matter public? 15 MR. DYSART: Yes. 16 MR. MAYER: Sir, can you tell me 17 why -- I think you are aware that prior to the 18 start of these hearings, the Minister made 19 available, I think it was $1 million for 20 participant assistance funding. Why did your 21 organization not make any application for that 22 participant assistance funding, and at the very 23 least we may have had some opportunity to assist 24 you with your recommendation number 7? 25 MR. TRONIAK: Mr. Mayer, maybe I can 3151 1 answer that. We only decided to get involved in 2 the process when PCN brought their motion forward 3 on September 30. At that time the membership, and 4 the executive in particular, hadn't made a 5 decision on whether to be involved or not -- 6 whether they felt there were issues that were 7 evolving that would be particularly interesting to 8 the membership or that it is something that they 9 should have devoted time to. However, seeing the 10 documentation for the PCN motion, it was decided 11 that the issues were very important. They also 12 dealt with all of NCN members, which about 13 85 percent of displaced residents are NCN members, 14 and decided to get involved in the process. By 15 that time, I believe all of the participant 16 funding was already allocated by that time. 17 MR. MAYER: You are right. 18 MR. TRONIAK: So we are not a funded 19 organization, so we have to be very careful, and 20 the executive are very careful to get involved in 21 things where they feel that they can have a direct 22 benefit and impact for the membership. 23 MR. MAYER: Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sargeant. 25 MR. SARGEANT: I would like to direct 3152 1 a question or two to Mr. Troniak. Mr. Troniak, 2 were you at the hearings in Winnipeg last week 3 when Dr. Kulchyski made his presentation? 4 MR. TRONIAK: Yes, I was. 5 MR. SARGEANT: Did you take note, or 6 do you recall the exchange between Mr. Bedford on 7 behalf of Manitoba Hydro and the chair, 8 Mr. Lecuyer, in respect of a paper that 9 Dr. Kulchyski said he was completing? 10 MR. TRONIAK: Yes. 11 MR. SARGEANT: And I believe we 12 concluded at that time that we would not accept 13 that paper because it was coming in after the 14 fact. Do you recall that? 15 MR. TRONIAK: I do recall that 16 discussion was had on the paper, and that the 17 Commission had said at that time that a paper -- 18 that they would not accept Dr. Kulchyski's paper. 19 I did not assume that it would be totally out of 20 bounds for somebody else to table it on 21 Mr. Kulchyski's behalf. 22 MR. SARGEANT: I am not saying whether 23 or not it is out of bounds, we are going to caucus 24 on that and decide that later. But I have a 25 question or two of you. This paper that you have 3153 1 tabled today, is this the same paper that 2 Dr. Kulchyski delivered at the University of 3 Winnipeg, or it says on the front "based on," is 4 this a paper that was completed after his 5 presentations before the CEC last week? 6 MR. TRONIAK: I think you would have 7 to talk to Dr. Kulchyski about that. I certainly 8 wouldn't want to talk on behalf of Dr. Kulchyski 9 on that. I am sure he is very approachable, that 10 if the Commission would contact him by phone or by 11 letter, I am sure he would clarify that. But I 12 certainly don't want to speak on his behalf on 13 that. 14 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? 16 Mr. Mayer. 17 MR. MAYER: You are presenting, your 18 Association is presenting this letter to the 19 Commission. You have got to tell us what it is 20 and where you got it from. If you want us to 21 accept a document, you have to tell us what it is 22 and where you got it from. 23 MR. TRONIAK: Which letter? 24 MR. MAYER: The Kulchyski paper. 25 MR. TRONIAK: We got it from Dr. Peter 3154 1 Kulchyski. 2 MR. MAYER: But you can't tell us 3 whether this is an update, as there seems to be 4 some indication it might be -- at least your 5 presentation says this is an update. We have to 6 determine whether this is the same document that 7 Dr. Kulchyski was talking about that he was going 8 to complete, revise, and tender later. 9 MR. TRONIAK: Okay. If you want my 10 opinion, I am assuming that it is, but to get 11 concrete confirmation on that, I would refer you 12 to Dr. Kulchyski for that. 13 MR. MAYER: Thank you, sir. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Other 15 questions? 16 MS. AVERY KINEW: We do have a 17 translator here if you wish to say anything in 18 Cree about your presentation? 19 MR. DYSART: Yes, I would like to have 20 a translator translate this in Cree for us, 21 please. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: You asked whether this, 23 your presentation could be translated into Cree? 24 MR. DYSART: Yes, please? 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, obviously it 3155 1 should have been done beforehand, before the 2 presentation here today, or maybe have arranged 3 for translation to be done here today. I see that 4 Mr -- I am seeking enlightenment on this issue -- 5 Mr. Thomas, are you going to shed some light? 6 MR. THOMAS: Hopefully. I know 7 Mr. Dysart and he speaks Cree very fluently, 8 perhaps even better than I do, and I see no reason 9 why he couldn't translate his own words. 10 MR. TRONIAK: Mr. Chairman, I just 11 talked to Mr. Dysart, and he said if the 12 Commission would like, Mr. Dysart could translate 13 it in Cree, time permitting. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: He will translate it 15 himself and will present us with a translation, a 16 translated version, or he wants to translate it 17 now? 18 MR. TRONIAK: Yes, he would like to 19 translate it now, time permitting. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: That is the problem. 21 The point is we would have to adjourn right now to 22 set that up and that will take additional time. 23 24 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 25 3156 1 THE CHAIRMAN: I wish that you had 2 availed yourself of the opportunity to present 3 maybe a portion of that presentation, as you did a 4 while ago, or asked us to make that possible 5 before you made the presentation. With the 6 limited amount of time that we have, and the other 7 presenters that we have on the list, we would be 8 seriously compromising the available time. If 9 Mr. Dysart wishes to make, take a few minutes to 10 make let's say a summary comment in Cree, maybe 11 five minutes at the most, we will allow that. 12 MR. DYSART: (Speaking in Cree.) 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Were there 14 other questions? 15 MR. ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, my name is 16 Adkins, again, I am representing Manitoba Hydro 17 with respect to some of these matters. 18 First of all, there were some 19 documents, the paper of Mr. Kulchyski and a paper 20 of Steven M. Hoffman that were attached to the 21 material that we received. And I believe that is 22 the same material that was handed over to the 23 Commission. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: The Commission in 25 regards -- the Commission will examine the paper 3157 1 which appears to have Mr. Peter Kulchyski's name 2 on it to make a determination on that. We see no 3 reason not to allow the other documents to be 4 filed as exhibits, but this one, we will hold for 5 the time being. 6 MR. ADKINS: Just with respect to the 7 paper of Steven Hoffman, I am wondering, do either 8 of the people that are here today and have filed 9 this, do either of you have professional 10 qualifications to respond to questions or 11 background in terms of what Mr. Hoffman's paper 12 is? 13 MR. TRONIAK: What do you mean by 14 that? 15 MR. ADKINS: Mr. Hoffman is not here 16 to answer questions in relation to that paper. Do 17 either of you have professional qualifications, or 18 were you part of preparing that paper, are those 19 part of your opinions, expressions, or views? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Proceed to ask your 21 questions, Mr. Adkins. 22 MR. ADKINS: Perhaps you could answer 23 that question? 24 MR. TRONIAK: We do support the paper 25 of Dr. Hoffman. We do feel that a chance to 3158 1 review it, the content, particularly pertaining to 2 South Indian Lake -- we are tabling the paper for 3 general information. We figure it is something 4 that could be of benefit to these hearings. As 5 far as being a person, or as us to be standing 6 here and to defend the paper on behalf of 7 Dr. Hoffman, we certainly aren't in a position to 8 do that. 9 MR. ADKINS: Thank you very much. 10 I just note with respect to that paper 11 that that should be taken into consideration in 12 considering the weight that should be given to 13 that paper. I am certainly not objecting to it 14 being filed, but I think it is an issue that 15 should be taken in consideration in giving weight 16 to it. 17 Mr. Dysart, can you indicate for the 18 record where you reside at the present? 19 MR. DYSART: I am residing in 20 Thompson, Manitoba. 21 MR. ADKINS: When did you leave South 22 Indian Lake? 23 MR. DYSART: I left South Indian Lake 24 in -- well, I didn't completely leave South Indian 25 Lake, but I have been going back and forth a lot 3159 1 of times, several times. Like when I was younger 2 when this project was coming up, I was in -- which 3 brings me back to 1974, it was in the fall of 1974 4 when Manitoba Hydro first finished completion of 5 the project, when the Churchill River Diversion 6 was turned around down to Nelson and Burntwood 7 River. And then that time, like I was trying to 8 get employment with Hydro but I didn't have no 9 qualifications. Like all of the time they say no 10 qualifications. So at that time I was just -- and 11 then I decided, well, since you are taking all of 12 my resources away, I said, I can't just be 13 drowning under water where my natural habitat has 14 been flooded out. So it got me thinking, I 15 started mining, since 1975 I started. 16 MR. ADKINS: In 1975 you started 17 mining, working at Inco? 18 MR. DYSART: Not with Inco, but I 19 started with Sherritt Gordon mines. 20 MR. ADKINS: With Sherritt Gordon 21 mines? 22 MR. DYSART: Yes. 23 MR. ADKINS: You left your residence 24 in South Indian Lake in 1975? 25 MR. DYSART: After I left -- this took 3160 1 effect with the hydro dam being constructed, but I 2 had to make other plans in order to survive. 3 MR. ADKINS: Now, you indicated that 4 your father was a commercial fisherman? 5 MR. DYSART: Yes. 6 MR. ADKINS: And the commercial 7 fishermen did work out an arrangement with 8 Manitoba Hydro and received some compensation. 9 Are you aware of that? 10 MR. DYSART: As far as compensation 11 goes, this like a self, individual claim for 12 compensation. 13 MR. ADKINS: There was an association, 14 I think your dad was one of the members of the 15 association, South Indian Lake Commercial 16 Fishermen's Association. 17 MR. DYSART: Yes. 18 MR. ADKINS: And if my recollection is 19 correct, that association actually used those 20 funds, they built quite a significant lodge up at 21 Big Sand Lake; is that correct? 22 MR. DYSART: I don't know whatever 23 funds were used, I was never informed on how they 24 were distributed, but I certainly didn't see any 25 of that compensation myself. 3161 1 MR. ADKINS: Presumably your dad was 2 involved in that, he was one of the signators to 3 the agreement; is that correct? 4 MR. DYSART: That could be correct, 5 but I never get involved in what my dad's business 6 is. I myself am trying to get the Hydro to be 7 open to me, like give me a fair and just 8 settlement in return for what they have taken from 9 me. 10 MR. ADKINS: Have you ever been up to 11 Big Sand Lake? 12 MR. TRONIAK: Excuse me -- this is, 13 whether Mr. Dysart has been up to Big Sand Lake, I 14 don't see what the relevance to these hearings 15 are. Like they are always objecting that we are 16 introducing things that are not the purview of 17 this hearing. I am just wondering if they could 18 provide some justification for this line of 19 questioning. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I believe the comment, 21 the question is germane and it relates to comments 22 made by Mr. Dysart in his opening remarks. 23 MR. ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, I would be 24 quite happy not to pursue this line of questioning 25 if, in fact, all of the material that was filed in 3162 1 connection with the issue of claims and the 2 adverse effects is not considered. But if it is 3 going to be part of this, then I think I need to 4 pursue this line of questioning, so that is why I 5 have done it. 6 So you have been up to Big Sand Lake? 7 MR. DYSART: Well, before they built a 8 tourist camp there, I was up there. In fact, I 9 trapped there when I was younger. I was trapping 10 with my uncle, William Dysart. 11 MR. ADKINS: So William is your uncle? 12 MR. DYSART: Yes. 13 MR. ADKINS: And he was the president 14 of the Commercial Fishermen's Association; is that 15 correct? 16 MR. DYSART: Yes. 17 MR. ADKINS: He was a pilot, he 18 flew -- 19 MR. DYSART: At that time, he wasn't a 20 pilot then, he was like a commercial fisherman 21 operator and a registered trapper. 22 MR. ADKINS: He became a pilot later? 23 MR. DYSART: Yes. 24 MR. ADKINS: And used that in the 25 commercial fishing operation? 3163 1 MR. DYSART: I don't know that he did. 2 MR. ADKINS: When you were at Big 3 Sand, what was there, what sort of development did 4 you see? 5 MR. DYSART: I haven't been to Big 6 Sand at all since they developed that tourist 7 camp. 8 MR. ADKINS: Do you have any knowledge 9 of the tourist camp? Have you heard about the 10 tourist camp? Do you know what has been developed 11 there? 12 MR. DYSART: I have a knowledge of 13 what has been developed there. 14 MR. ADKINS: It is pretty nice? 15 MR. DYSART: I would say yes. 16 MR. ADKINS: There is a place for 17 planes to land? 18 MR. DYSART: Yes, there is a strip 19 there. 20 MR. ADKINS: There is a large lodge 21 and there is a whole bunch of other facilities for 22 people to stay overnight or stay for a week and go 23 fishing? 24 MR. DYSART: Yes. 25 MR. ADKINS: It has got a catch and 3164 1 release program there? 2 MR. DYSART: Yes. 3 MR. ADKINS: How many people, 4 residents of South Indian Lake actually are 5 employed up at Big Sand? 6 MR. DYSART: Like -- to the best of my 7 knowledge, like it is only a small portion of what 8 is not employed. 9 MR. ADKINS: Only a small portion of 10 which? 11 MR. DYSART: That are employed at Big 12 Sand. 13 MR. ADKINS: A small portion of the 14 entire community? 15 MR. DYSART: Yes. 16 MR. ADKINS: But there is still a 17 significant number of people employed at Big Sand 18 every year; is that not right? 19 MR. DYSART: That is true. There is a 20 limit to what you can have there, because you only 21 got so much. 22 MR. ADKINS: My understanding is that 23 the funds that the commercial fishermen received 24 from the settlement with Manitoba Hydro were used 25 to build that lodge and facilities, the air strip? 3165 1 MR. DYSART: I am not the one to say, 2 because I was never involved with those kinds of 3 agreements. 4 MR. TRONIAK: It might be more 5 appropriate to talk to CASIL about -- the ones who 6 actually negotiated the agreement and signed it. 7 MR. ADKINS: It wasn't a CASIL 8 Agreement. This is a commercial fishermen's 9 agreement. 10 MR. TRONIAK: Or the people that 11 actually negotiated it with you -- to expect 12 Mr. Dysart to know the ins and outs of all of the 13 agreements, I don't know if it is appropriate. 14 MR. ADKINS: I am trying to 15 determine -- 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Troniak, if you 17 have comments or points of order, please direct 18 them to me as chair. 19 MR. TRONIAK: Sorry, Bob. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Carry on. 21 MR. ADKINS: Now, my understanding is 22 that in fact the commercial fishery did reopen; is 23 that correct? You are aware of that? 24 MR. DYSART: Well, my understanding 25 is, since Manitoba Hydro raised, built a dam at 3166 1 the Churchill River Diversion, it has always been 2 open but the quantity is not there. It has been 3 like graded right down to continental fishing. 4 MR. ADKINS: And some of that, there 5 was a period of time when the grade was off, but 6 the grade had improved at this point in time. Am 7 I correct in that? 8 MR. DYSART: Like, I don't know, but 9 like myself, from what I have seen, like I often 10 go back there, but for what I see, like all of the 11 erosion, it is like -- I would say it is about the 12 size of Winnipeg that has been eroding to South 13 Indian Lake like almost every year. 14 MR. ADKINS: But in terms of the 15 commercial fishery, do you have any knowledge as 16 to what the catch has been in the last five or ten 17 years, or the quality of the fish that have been 18 caught? 19 MR. DYSART: I am not the one to say 20 what the record is, but from my own past 21 experience -- like I commercial fished when they 22 first raised the lake in South Indian Lake, but I 23 use my -- well, my late father-in-law, Loco (ph) 24 was his name, I used his name, I took a couple of 25 weeks off when I was mining and I decided to go 3167 1 and try it out. And I was fishing then, but it 2 was only the first year that they raised water, 3 and this was in the winter of 1975, in January, I 4 commercial fished, and then the quantity was still 5 there. But then after that, after the next, the 6 following summer fishing came, it dropped 7 drastically. When you consider what good quantity 8 fishing is like, and when I grow up, when I used 9 to watch my dad fishing, he would have ten nets 10 out, and that is the most he could handle. And 11 those ten nets, he had to lift them twice a day, 12 early in the morning and early in the afternoon. 13 He had to empty the nets because -- you would see 14 in the morning when you used to go, to go check on 15 the nets, me and my dad -- I was young then -- you 16 could see, you could look at the nets, like 17 sometimes you would have them ten in a gang, that 18 is 100 yards of nets. You have ten in a gang. Of 19 those ten nets, all you would see is the white 20 fish floating, no other fish, just Export A white 21 fish, and all of those ten nets would float. Now 22 today, to look at what Manitoba Hydro has raised 23 the water, in the diversion, and the debris that 24 is all floating to the main lakes, it is very 25 typical for any fisherman to say, well, he is 3168 1 making a good living in fishing, but I doubt it. 2 In return of compensation for what the fishermen 3 are getting, it is almost nil. 4 MR. ADKINS: Just to go back to the 5 question that I asked, are you aware of the actual 6 harvest, the fishing results in the commercial 7 fishery in the last five -- 8 MR. DYSART: I am aware that there has 9 been harvest fishing, but I would say it has 10 dropped drastically to over half. 11 MR. ADKINS: You don't have the actual 12 figures to show? 13 MR. DYSART: No, but in my own past 14 experience, I know that the fishermen are really 15 struggling to get any fish, if there is any fish 16 in that lake at all. 17 MR. ADKINS: Are you aware that, in 18 addition to the settlement that I have already 19 referred to, that Manitoba Hydro worked with the 20 commercial fishermen to relocate the fish plant to 21 fishing outposts from Missi to Sturgeon Narrows? 22 MR. DYSART: I am only explaining what 23 I seen when I grow up in the past. I don't have 24 really no idea what Manitoba Hydro has been 25 dealing and making agreements with commercial 3169 1 fishermen. 2 MR. ADKINS: So you are not aware of 3 that? 4 MR. DYSART: No. 5 MR. ADKINS: Are you aware that there 6 was work done with Manitoba Hydro on an additional 7 settlement even subsequent to that, and further 8 compensation was paid so that there was separate 9 compensation arrangements with the fishermen? Are 10 you aware of it? 11 MR. DYSART: I am aware there has been 12 compensation, and what has been going on in South 13 Indian, but you know, like myself, like I am -- 14 well, I am self dependent myself, but on the other 15 hand, for what was taken away from me is what I am 16 seeking for a fair and just settlement, you know, 17 reliable compensation. 18 MR. ADKINS: And you actually have a 19 lawyer that is representing you and there is a -- 20 MR. DYSART: I have got a lawyer 21 representing me. 22 MR. ADKINS: Good. Now, going back to 23 the South Indian Lake and the comments that you 24 are making with respect to South Indian Lake, are 25 you aware as well that Manitoba Hydro is working 3170 1 with the commercial fishermen over the last few 2 years in terms of reaching other areas to carry 3 out fishing? Are you aware of that? 4 MR. DYSART: I wasn't aware of it, 5 but -- like another thing too, I don't know why 6 Manitoba Hydro is just concerned about commercial 7 fishermen, you know, there is a lot of people that 8 came from South Indian that, on account of this 9 happening, going their own ways. How come 10 Manitoba Hydro is not involved with those people? 11 MR. ADKINS: Let's talk about -- we 12 don't want to talk about commercial fishing all 13 the time, let's turn to trapping. You are aware 14 there was a trappers settlement that was also 15 reached with Manitoba Hydro? 16 MR. DYSART: I suppose, but how come 17 Hydro was mainly concerned about settling with 18 commercial fishermen and trappers? 19 MR. ADKINS: That was two of the main 20 industries. 21 MR. DYSART: In view of what Manitoba 22 Hydro has done to all of those people that lived 23 in the community. 24 MR. ADKINS: The two main industries 25 in the community of South Indian Lake were 3171 1 trapping and fishing, I think your own evidence 2 was that. 3 MR. DYSART: Yes. 4 MR. ADKINS: Can you indicate, did you 5 ever do any economic analysis, or anyone do an 6 economic analysis for you on behalf of you in 7 connection with the effects of the anti-fur lobby 8 on trapping? 9 MR. DYSART: As far as the economical, 10 when you look at it, like it doesn't take a genius 11 to figure it out. But, like when Manitoba Hydro 12 holds the water back to its peak, and you see all 13 of these, like the wildlife, like beaver and 14 muskrats, for example, wherever the water reached 15 its peak, that is where they intend to make their 16 beaver house. And the muskrats, they have holes 17 along the rivers. And that is the way when the 18 water is stable. At a certain time when the Hydro 19 releases water, and all of these, like the beaver 20 and the muskrats, the water drops and the ice 21 falls, and the muskrats and beaver freeze along 22 the river, and that is a pretty environmental 23 concern, because this continues on every year. 24 MR. ADKINS: Let me ask again the 25 question that I asked, and maybe you can direct 3172 1 your mind to that and see if you can answer it. I 2 was asking you in connection with the trapping 3 industry. You had commented on the income of 4 people in South Indian Lake, and I was asking 5 whether or not you had any analysis done as to the 6 effects of the anti-fur lobby on the trapping 7 industry in South Indian Lake? 8 MR. TRONIAK: Maybe I could answer 9 that -- no. 10 MR. ADKINS: You are aware of the 11 anti-fur lobby and you are aware that fur prices, 12 in effect, did suffer a significant drop as a 13 consequence of the anti-fur lobby; is that common 14 ground? 15 MR. DYSART: Yes. 16 MR. ADKINS: You talked about the 17 community itself, and my understanding is, from 18 affidavit material and copies of agreements and 19 other things, that both the Province of Manitoba 20 and Manitoba Hydro actually did an awful lot of 21 work in the community itself at South Indian Lake. 22 Are you aware of that? 23 MR. DYSART: Yes, I am aware of it. 24 MR. ADKINS: They put an airport in 25 place there; correct? 3173 1 MR. DYSART: That airport has been 2 there for several years. 3 MR. ADKINS: Correct, but that was put 4 in there by the Province I think actually? 5 MR. DYSART: I think it was put by 6 Northern Affairs. 7 MR. ADKINS: As part of the Provincial 8 initiative? 9 MR. TRONIAK: If I just may add, South 10 Indian Lake up to I believe 1999 was an 11 unincorporated community under Northern Affairs, 12 and since then an incorporated community. So of 13 course much of that infrastructure is being put 14 into South Indian Lake and to other similar 15 Northern Affairs communities. So it is part of 16 the mandate and the responsibility under normal 17 Government programming, much of it. 18 MR. ADKINS: There was cost sharing 19 done by Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro with respect 20 to a number of infrastructure and other services 21 put into that community, like roads and houses and 22 a community club, and a town hall and other things 23 of that nature, is that correct -- stores? 24 MR. DYSART: There has been limited 25 housing from Manitoba Hydro. 3174 1 MR. ADKINS: But there were things 2 that Manitoba Hydro paid for; is that correct? 3 MR. DYSART: Like, as far as those 4 housing, I am concerned, like they are not even 5 built for Northern Manitoba. Like, it is just 6 like they were built like for the southern part of 7 Manitoba or somewhere in the southern part where 8 it is warm, where the climate is a lot different. 9 MR. ADKINS: You are aware that there 10 was claims 46 and 47 I think filed with the 11 Northern Flood Agreement arbitrator on behalf of 12 the residents of the community of South Indian 13 Lake. 14 MR. DYSART: I don't know what -- as 15 an individual myself, and like for what is 16 relating to as far as South Indian Lake, what 17 claims went through. To the best of my knowledge, 18 like, South Indian Lake is a self community 19 itself. I don't get involved with those claims, 20 what is going through. 21 MR. ADKINS: You indicated some of 22 your members are again residents of South Indian 23 lake; is that correct? 24 MR. DYSART: Yes. 25 MR. ADKINS: So they have moved back 3175 1 there, notwithstanding the problems in the 2 community that you have referred to? 3 MR. DYSART: Not all of us moved out, 4 but some of us did. 5 MR. ADKINS: The ones who haven't 6 moved out, are they part of, have they actually 7 been involved in claims 46 and 47? 8 MR. DYSART: I don't think so, because 9 otherwise I wouldn't have them sign that DRSIL. 10 MR. TRONIAK: Can we maybe defer, like 11 if Mr. Adkins would want further information, we 12 can talk to the legal counsel on whether they were 13 part of claims 46 and 47, which I believe were for 14 housing and fishing compensation. But as far as 15 we know, you know, I will put that on notice, put 16 the question on notice, take it on notice, if he 17 wants to pursue this line of questioning. 18 MR. ADKINS: My only purpose of doing 19 this is just to try and understand. We have a 20 litany of issues, my impression had been they had 21 not been addressed, and I would like to at least 22 have the record reflect that they may not be fully 23 and completely addressed to everyone's 24 satisfaction, but that there has been a fair 25 amount of effort by Manitoba Hydro and the 3176 1 Province of Manitoba, different roles under the 2 Northern Flood Agreement, to try to address some 3 of those issues. I would like to just try to 4 ensure that that part of the record is clear. 5 MR. TRONIAK: I would encourage you 6 maybe to ask the questions to actually maybe the 7 community association of South Indian Lake, and to 8 the community, to see how they would assess 9 whether Manitoba Hydro has done the job that it 10 should have been doing, instead of having 11 Mr. Dysart give an opinion on that, who doesn't 12 live in South Indian Lake and the conditions right 13 now. 14 MR. ADKINS: I am just asking the 15 questions of this witness, because he did get up 16 and speak about South Indian Lake and the 17 situation in that community, and the problems that 18 were there. I think it is fair to ask him some of 19 these questions and find out what he knows. 20 You are aware there was a settlement 21 with the community association of South Indian 22 Lake. It was a $18 million settlement with 23 Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro? 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, sir? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I stand with 3177 1 your discretion. I have listened to Mr. Dysart's 2 presentation and he did not mention any of these 3 claims. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: I listened as well, but 5 he did mention the fact that they were not 6 compensated, and I think the questions are 7 appropriate. We will let them go on. There is no 8 point of order, please. 9 MR. ADKINS: Just to clarify -- 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adkins, I also wish 11 to advise you that you are asking questions, and I 12 think if you ask your questions and you get an 13 answer, then the question has been answered. 14 MR. ADKINS: I appreciate that, 15 Mr. Chairman. I will be short. I recognize there 16 is only so much that this witness is aware of. 17 You are aware that there was a 18 $18 million settlement? 19 MR. DYSART: I am aware that the 20 community of South Indian Lake took a settlement 21 of $18 million, I am aware of that. But that is 22 just a small portion for what the community 23 itself, I guess -- and this reflects to the 24 question when I was growing up. Like, South 25 Indian, when they start negotiating, I thought, 3178 1 like my dad used to have quite a few pamphlets, 2 but I never kept them, but I only heard this when 3 I was young. Like to start the negotiating, it 4 said there was an estimate of $80 million, and it 5 kind of makes me wonder sometimes, when I hear 6 they made a settlement of 18 million. And to go 7 back -- and this for our needs, like myself, you 8 know, like when they took that 18 million for the 9 settlement of the community of South Indian Lake, 10 and then when they did get it, they never included 11 everybody, but that was just the community made 12 that settlement of 18 million. It is not I 13 myself, after forming this DRSIL, I never accepted 14 no claims or no settlement, yet. 15 MR. ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, I think 16 most of the information in connection with the 17 CASIL agreement has been filed, so I will conclude 18 my questions at this point. Thank you very much. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ms. Kathi 20 Avery Kinew. 21 MS. AVERY KINEW: Mr. Dysart, we had 22 our consultant look up your letter of December 17, 23 and we just looked it over, and the reply of the 24 Clean Environment Commission from January 8th. 25 And the issue was late filing of your questions 3179 1 for the dates that were set aside so the 2 Commission could go forward. And what the reply 3 was, was that it was too late to put in more 4 questions. But this is important, it would be the 5 Clean Environment's expectation in this regard 6 that Hydro/NCN will review the questions that you 7 presented by DRSIL on December 17, 2003, and 8 prepare accordingly for possible cross-examination 9 during a hearing. And that has happened in the 10 last couple of weeks, and a lot of the information 11 that you ask for in your December 17 letter is on 12 the record. And we are trying to get all of the 13 information out so that it is public and people 14 know. So I hope that is helpful. 15 One thing that -- one of the points 16 that you did make that there isn't a lot of 17 information of what the Federal and Provincial 18 Government are doing about Treaty and Aboriginal 19 rights being satisfactorily dealt with. But every 20 time the question has come up to Manitoba Hydro or 21 NCN, we have got an answer from them. So I hope 22 that helps you. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Matthew 24 Lemieux. 25 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The document 3180 1 that Mr. Dysart referred to I don't believe was on 2 the record. We had not tendered it. We had 3 provided it to Mr. Dysart -- well, actually to 4 Vern Anderson and to Mr. Dysart's legal counsel. 5 He is correct, Mr. Dysart is correct that it is 6 posted to the NCN website. And if Commission 7 counsel, or if the Commission would like a copy, 8 we could provide it, I suppose, to the Commission. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 10 Would you state your name, sir. 11 MR. MOORE: My name is Frank Moore 12 from Nelson House reserve. (SPEAKING CREE.) 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this a question that 14 you asked now of Mr. Dysart? You asked a 15 question? 16 MR. DYSART: Most of these questions 17 he is directing to Elvis Thomas. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have a question, 19 sir, to ask of these gentlemen? 20 MR. MOORE: (SPEAKING CREE) 21 MR. DYSART: Most of these questions 22 are relating to Elvis Thomas. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, sir, when 24 the panel from Hydro and NCN is sitting there, 25 hopefully later on today, you will get an 3181 1 opportunity to ask questions of Mr. Thomas at that 2 time. Okay. If we get an opportunity to have the 3 panel over there today, then you can come up and 4 ask them questions. 5 MR. MOORE: Okay. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: We will take at this 7 point -- we thank you for your presentation. 8 Mr. Grewar will file for exhibit 9 certain documents. Mr. Grewar, we will not at 10 this time file the document from Mr. Kulchyski. 11 We shall, as a Commission, review whether this 12 document can or should be filed. 13 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 14 If I could just give some numbers then to the 15 exhibits that you are accepting, the first would 16 be Association for the Displaced Residents of 17 South Indian Lake, Clean Environment Commission 18 hearings, the presentation of Angus Dysart, 19 president, as DRSIL-1003. That is the actual 20 presentation. 21 (EXHIBIT DRSIL-1003: Presentation of 22 Angus Dysart) 23 24 MR. GREWAR: The next would be 25 correspondence from Ken Agar, Aboriginal and 3182 1 Northern Affairs, dated February 19, 2004, to 2 Nelson House Chief and Council and others. And it 3 is regarding Manitoba Hydro's quarterly report of 4 reserve residents' employment from specified 5 dates, and that would be exhibit DRSIL-1004. 6 7 (EXHIBIT DRSIL-1004: Correspondence from Ken 8 Agar, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, 9 February 19, 2004, re Manitoba Hydro's quarterly 10 report of reserve residents' employment from 11 specified dates) 12 13 MR. GREWAR: The attachment to Mr. 14 Dysart's presentation is a document entitled 15 "Engineering Poverty: Colonialism and 16 Hydroelectric Development in Northern Manitoba" by 17 Steven Hoffman. It will be DRSIL-1005. 18 19 (EXHIBIT DRSIL-1005: Engineering 20 Poverty: Colonialism and Hydroelectric 21 Development in Northern Manitoba) 22 23 MR. GREWAR: The other exhibit that 24 you agreed to accept, Mr. Chairman, from Manitoba 25 Hydro as the filing entity, would be MH/NCN-1025, 3183 1 and it is correspondence from Mr. W.E. Thomas, 2 Councillor, Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, to Vern 3 Anderson, Vice-President, Association for the 4 Displaced Residents of South Indian Lake, dated 5 March 9, 2004, regarding the Wuskwatim generation 6 and transmission project. 7 8 (EXHIBIT MH/NC1025: Correspondence 9 from Mr. W.E. Thomas to Vern Anderson, 10 March 9, 2004, re Wuskwatim Generation 11 and Transmission Project) 12 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Grewar. 14 We will now take a break. We will reconvene just 15 prior to ten minutes to, at about 12 minutes to. 16 17 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 10:40 AND 18 RECONVENED AT 10:50 A.M.) 19 20 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, would you introduce 22 yourself and then Mr. Grewar will swear you in. 23 MR. KRENTZ: Hello, I'm Bruce Krentz. 24 I'm the General Manager with the NorMan Regional 25 Development Corporation. 3184 1 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Krentz, are you aware 2 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 3 mislead this Commission? 4 MR. KRENTZ: Yes. 5 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 6 only the truth in proceedings before this Commission? 7 MR. KRENTZ: I do. 8 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 9 10 (BRUCE KRENTZ: SWORN) 11 12 MR. KRENTZ: Good morning, everyone. 13 Like I said, I'm Bruce Krentz. I'm the General 14 Manager for the NorMan Regional Development 15 Corporation and it's my pleasure to be here today to 16 lend support for the proposed development of the 17 Wuskwatim Generating Station and related transmission 18 facilities. 19 My presentation today will contain information 20 on who our organization are, what we feel the 21 benefits to the region will be, why we feel this is a 22 positive project and finally some of our concerns. 23 I'm here on behalf of the NorMan Regional 24 Development Corporation at the request of our Board 25 of Directors who passed a resolution at our 3185 1 semi-annual meeting in September of 2003 in Thompson 2 that reads, Upon motion made by Mayor Dulewich, 3 seconded by Councillor Kolada, it was resolved and 4 carried that; whereas NorMan Regional Development 5 Corporation's mission is to promote economic 6 development within the NorMan region; and whereas the 7 proposed Wuskwatim Generating Station is viewed by 8 NorMan RDC as having a positive impact on Northern 9 Manitoba and Manitoba as a whole. 10 Therefore, be it resolved that NorMan RDC go 11 on record as supporting the development of the 12 Wuskwatim Generating Station and that the General 13 Manager, that's me, draft a presentation to be 14 delivered at the Clean Environment Commission 15 hearings concerning this project in March of 2004. 16 That's great but exactly who are we and what 17 is our mandate? 18 The NorMan Regional Development Corporation is 19 a community and provincially funded regional based 20 corporation who serve people and communities north of 21 the 53rd parallel here in Manitoba. Our mission, as 22 per our mission statement, is to promote and 23 encourage economic development north of the 53rd 24 parallel in Manitoba and to assist and cooperate with 25 municipal, provincial and federal governments as well 3186 1 as with other organizations in planning and creating 2 economic development in our region. 3 Because the project will bring dollars and 4 recourses to the region, it relates closely to our 5 mission. So the project and the process are of 6 interest to us. 7 We are an organization who are partially 8 funded by member communities and businesses. The 9 remainder of our funding comes through the provincial 10 government. 11 We have 10 member communities north of the 12 53rd parallel including Thompson, Leaf Rapids, Lynn 13 Lake, Gillam, Churchill, Flin Flon, The Pas, Snow 14 Lake, The RM of Kelsey and Grand Rapids. Each of 15 those communities have two representatives on our 16 Board of Directors. We have corporate members as 17 well who include INCO, HBM&S, Tolko Industries, 18 Manitoba Hydro, Stittco, Skyward Aviation, Acres Ltd. 19 and Calm Air. Each of the corporate members have 20 representatives who attend our board meetings as 21 well. 22 And finally we have representation from a 23 number of government departments including 24 Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives, Culture 25 Heritage and Tourism, Keewatin Community College, 3187 1 Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, the Communities 2 Economic Development Fund and the Northern Regional 3 Cabinet Office as well as Conservation. 4 As you can see, we are proud to represent a 5 variety of sectors and interests from across the 6 north with a focus on economic development and 7 projects that strengthen the future of the north. 8 We feel this is one of those projects and feel 9 it will benefit the north in a number of ways. 10 The capital development will be a definite 11 benefit to the north. We feel that that capital 12 development will not only benefit the Thompson and 13 NCN areas but will benefit a larger part of the 14 region as the supplies will travel through many 15 communities in the north. Also business and service 16 providers through the region will be called on to 17 assist in the development that will happen. 18 Obviously, the greatest benefit will come to 19 the communities closest to the project. But as a 20 region, the members of the NorMan Regional 21 Development Corporation are impressed with the 22 opportunities for us as a whole. 23 The training and education that will happen 24 around the project is another benefit that we are 25 impressed with. Again, it is both the obvious and 3188 1 the spin-off benefits we see as an advantage. The 2 training that will take place to ready people for 3 construction and the start-up of the generating 4 station and the related facilities is great for the 5 workforce. The positive spin-off we see is better 6 trained work force in the north. Even if the skills 7 are not directly related to some of our other large 8 industries such as mining or forestry, we still end 9 up with a larger workforce of people who were in the 10 industrial workforce and are now employable. 11 Construction is an obvious benefit that I will 12 not spend too much time on but will say that to an 13 organization interested in economic development, a 14 project budgeted at $900 million looks to us like a 15 pretty good boost for the economy in our region. The 16 money spent not only on the actual facilities but the 17 money spent in the region by the people doing the 18 construction and people related to the project will 19 be a positive for many of the communities and the 20 people providing service on the routes in and out of 21 as well as around the project. 22 There will be some ongoing employment once the 23 project is complete. While the numbers required to 24 operate and maintain the facilities are not huge, it 25 is a good thing for the region to have those 3189 1 permanent positions. 2 As the project stands right now, if NCN do 3 invest and own part of the generating station, the 4 ongoing benefits to the community will be 5 significant. Again, the benefit will be greatest to 6 the citizens of NCN but more money in the region is a 7 benefit to us all. 8 There are a number of things we would call 9 positive impacts or aspects of the project and the 10 process in place to complete the project that we feel 11 are positives. The first of those being that if 12 completed, the generating station and related 13 facilities will provide a more stable power supply 14 for residents and businesses in the north and across 15 Manitoba. Our large industries such as mining and 16 forestry rely very heavily on hydroelectricity and a 17 more stable supply and increased potential for the 18 future is a strong support. 19 In the recent past, we have seen some mine 20 closures in places like Leaf Rapids and Lynn Lake and 21 have some uncertainty in forestry. We see the 22 establishment of an ongoing stable development as a 23 positive step for the future of the north. While 24 Hydro is already established in the north, we are 25 encouraged by an industry who are growing while 3190 1 others shrink. We welcome any development which can 2 fill the gaps, or better yet, increase the economy in 3 the north and we see this as a step toward that. 4 From a business perspective, we feel it makes 5 sense to bring the generating station on line early 6 and to use sales of that power to pay down the debt 7 on the project before Manitoba has a need to use that 8 power itself. 9 We feel that Hydro and NCN are undertaking a 10 responsible process by involving local input and 11 doing comprehensive impact studies. We believe that 12 this not only ensures the success of the project but 13 sets a standard for future resource development in 14 the north. The process we are involved in here sets 15 a standard, or at the very least, sets us on a path 16 for reviewing all hydro and other resource 17 development projects in the future. We feel that is 18 a very positive by-product of this project. 19 As an organization, we are satisfied with the 20 plans to continue to manage environmental impacts 21 such as the areas that will be flooded and wildlife 22 resource access. We applaud the move to a low head 23 dam to minimize flooding and the way that decision 24 was made in consultation with local residents. 25 While we are in favour of the project as a 3191 1 whole, we do have some concerns or areas we feel must 2 be attended to and stay attended to in order to 3 protect the north and in order for the project to be 4 considered a success. 5 We feel the construction phase of the project 6 will put pressure on some of the service industries 7 in the north especially those in NCN and in Thompson 8 but also in all areas that the supplies and people 9 will travel. There will be social problems in 10 relation to more money and more people moving around 11 in the region but we feel that in communities are 12 aware ahead of time, these issues can be managed. 13 We are also concerned about environmental 14 impacts as a whole but are also satisfied that they 15 are being managed through the Environmental Impact 16 Study. We would be naive in thinking there not be an 17 impact but we do feel the process is sound. The 18 impacts are being assessed and managed and that the 19 benefits to the region are worthwhile. 20 Wildlife resources could see pressure from 21 increased accessibility. This is another area that 22 can be managed but our concern is just that it's 23 managed both as the area is opened to access and in 24 the future when the project is no longer in the 25 public's eye. 3192 1 A large concern also is the displacement of 2 local people who use the area for hunting and 3 trapping. There is always some cost to new projects 4 and new directions and we are comfortable with that 5 but we want to be sure the concerns, lifestyles and 6 economies of the people who use the area of the 7 proposed generating station and related transmission 8 facilities are addressed. 9 In summary, I would say that being an 10 organization interested in economic development, we 11 feel compelled to support a project that will see an 12 estimated $900 million flow to our region. We do not 13 blindly support the project but we do feel 14 comfortable with the process that the major players 15 have embarked upon. 16 We like the fact that the project includes 17 participation from local people and specifically NCN. 18 We feel there's a great opportunity for benefit in 19 terms of financial gains and an increase in human 20 resources. Those benefits and others will be felt in 21 Thompson and throughout the region and as a regional 22 organization, we look forward to that. Those 23 financial gains to the region will be positive but we 24 are also interested in the training and education 25 that will support industry as a whole in the north. 3193 1 We only support the project if the 2 Environmental Impact Study continues on the path it 3 has begun and if the impacts on the environment are 4 managed not only before and during construction but 5 through the life of the generating station and the 6 transmission lines and facilities. 7 We commend the Government of Manitoba for 8 dedicating resource to the process and for taking 9 steps to ensure that the project is carried forward 10 in this responsible manner. 11 I spoke on who we are as an organization, what 12 we felt the benefits to the region will be, why we 13 feel this is a positive project and finally some of 14 our concerns. On behalf of the NorMan Regional 15 Development Corporation, its member communities, 16 corporations and government partners, I'd like to 17 thank you for your time and the opportunity for us to 18 show our support for the Wuskwatim Generating Station 19 and related transmission facilities. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 21 MR. DYSART: Just a couple of questions 22 in regards to our organization. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Your name, please. 24 MR. DYSART: Leslie Dysart, Northern 25 Manitoban, South Indian Laker, NCN Band member. 3194 1 Noticeably absent as your member communities are 2 First Nations communities. Can you give any reason 3 for that? 4 MR. KRENTZ: You know, it's something 5 that we're trying to address as an organization and 6 we'd really like to have some more communities 7 involved so it's something we're working on. I don't 8 know if that's a good answer for you but that's the 9 truth. 10 MR. DYSART: How long has NorMan 11 Regional -- 12 MR. KRENTZ: We've been operating for 13 close to 30 years. 14 MR. DYSART: Thirty years. So you're a 15 relatively old corporation. Has invitations been 16 extended to First Nations communities to join your 17 organization? 18 MR. KRENTZ: They have in the past, 19 yes. And we've been working with different people to 20 try to get our word out I guess in the last couple of 21 years or trying to do some membership recruiting 22 through more of the communities in Northern Manitoba. 23 MR. DYSART: Like some of the 24 recommendations made in regards to the environment 25 but I'm just wondering how much consultation or 3195 1 discussions your organization has had with First 2 Nation communities? 3 MR. KRENTZ: Not too much in putting 4 together the presentation. 5 MR. DYSART: Okay. Thank you. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mayer. 7 MR. MAYER: Mr. Krentz, it seems that 8 during the nine years I was on Thompson City Council 9 back in the late seventies and early eighties, that 10 at that time, there were in fact one or two 11 Aboriginal communities who were members of NorMan 12 RDC; am I not correct in that? 13 MR. KRENTZ: In the past, we've had 14 some communities sort of come in and out of the 15 organization like you say. 16 MR. MAYER: I think if I recall 17 correctly one of the major complaints was the amount 18 of the fees. 19 MR. KRENTZ: And that's what we're 20 struggling with right now. You're exactly right. We 21 charge -- our membership is based on a per capita 22 charge and so sometimes the smaller communities have 23 trouble meeting that or don't feel like it's worth it 24 for them to do. 25 MR. MAYER: Thank you. 3196 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir. 2 MR. MILLER: Yeah. My name is Nelson 3 Miller from Pimicikamak. I've got a couple of 4 questions I'd like to ask you. There's a map on the 5 wall here. It shows two of the major river systems, 6 the Churchill, the Nelson and the Burntwood 7 connecting the two. There's a third that's not shown 8 on there and this is the Grassy River System on which 9 Paint Lake is on. The Grassy River System drains out 10 onto the Nelson and this is an affected water body. 11 What is -- the question is what is RDC and its 12 corporate members doing to address what's happening 13 at Paint Lake? 14 MR. KRENTZ: I think our support for 15 the project and our interest in the project is an 16 economic one. Like I said, we're interested in 17 encouraging economic development and we're prepared 18 to leave some of the environmental concerns to some 19 people who have spent more time and have more 20 knowledge in that area. Does that answer your 21 question? 22 MR. MILLER: No. 23 MR. KRENTZ: Like I said, I think we've 24 sort of put faith in the process that the Clean 25 Environment Commission are putting together that 3197 1 those concerns will be addressed. 2 MR. MILLER: Now you mentioned positive 3 impacts. Is that a positive impact, what's happening 4 at Paint Lake? 5 MR. KRENTZ: That it will be affected 6 through this development? Is that what you're 7 saying? 8 MR. MILLER: It's a very simple 9 question. 10 MR. KRENTZ: Okay. 11 MR. MILLER: You said positive impacts. 12 You are saying there's some positive impacts. I'm 13 asking you, is what's happening at Paint Lake a 14 positive impact? 15 MR. SARGEANT: What is happening at 16 Paint Lake for those of us who aren't from the north? 17 MR. MILLER: There's -- this summer, 18 there was a drought and there was a lot of things 19 happening there with respect to damaged outboards and 20 cottage people having hard times out there. There 21 was even talk of building a dam over there to bring 22 the water levels up in Paint Lake. 23 MR. SARGEANT: How does that relate to 24 the hydro project to Wuskwatim or to any of