6434 1 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION 2 3 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 4 Volume 27 5 6 Including List of Participants 7 8 9 10 Hearing 11 12 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 13 14 Presiding: 15 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair 16 Kathi Kinew 17 Harvey Nepinak 18 Robert Mayer 19 Terry Sargeant 20 21 Wednesday, May 26, 2004 22 Sheraton Hotel 23 161 Donald Street 24 Winnipeg, Manitoba 25 6435 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Clean Environment Commission: 4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman 5 Terry Sargeant Member 6 Harvey Nepinak Member 7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member 8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission 9 Rory Grewar Staff 10 CEC Advisors: 11 Mel Falk 12 Dave Farlinger 13 Jack Scriven 14 Jim Sandison 15 Jean McClellan 16 Brent McLean 17 Kyla Gibson 18 19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation: 20 Chief Jerry Primrose 21 Elvis Thomas 22 Campbell MacInnes 23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux 24 25 6436 1 2 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 3 4 Manitoba Conservation: 5 Larry Strachan 6 Trent Hreno 7 8 Manitoba Hydro/NCN: 9 Doug Bedford, Counsel 10 Bob Adkins, Counsel 11 Marvin Shaffer 12 Ed Wojczynski 13 Ken Adams 14 Carolyn Wray 15 Ron Mazur 16 Lloyd Kuczek 17 Cam Osler 18 Stuart Davies 19 David Hicks 20 George Rempel 21 David Cormie 22 Alex Fleming 23 Marvin Shaffer 24 Blair McMahon 25 6437 1 2 3 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 4 5 6 Trapline 18 7 Greg McIvor 8 Don McIvor 9 10 Tataskweyak Cree Nation 11 Victor Spence 12 13 14 15 Wellington Spence - Private 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6438 1 2 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 3 4 Number Page 5 18-1000: Video Presentation: 6 "Ferguson Creek Hydrological 7 Investigation" 6497 8 9 T18-1001: Clean Environment 10 Commission Wuskwatim Generation 11 Projectand Wuskwatim Transmission 12 Line Project. 13 Presentation by Greg and Donald McIvor, 14 Trap Line 18 and Trap line Area 430. 15 Additional Reference Materials 6498 16 17 T18-1002: Presentation Slides: 18 Clean Environment Commission Wuskwatim 19 Generation and Transmission Projects, May 20 26, 2004. Presentation by Greg McIvor and 21 Donald McIvor, Trap Line 18 and Wobowden 22 Registered Trap Line Area 430 6498 23 24 25 6439 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE 3 4 MC-1004: Undertaking MC-80: 5 Advise which recommendations from What 6 You Told Us document were not implemented 7 and provide reasons why 6527 8 9 MC-1005: Undertaking MC-82: 10 Inquire of Ms. Hickson if she reviewed 11 seven items and provide results of 12 review 6527 13 14 TCN-1000: Tataskweyak Cree 15 Nation presentation by Mr. Spence 6548 16 17 MH/NCN-1042: Record for Trapline Holders for 18 Trapline 18 6550 19 20 MH/NCN 1043: Letter, April 22, 2004 from Ken 21 Adams to Gary Kubly, letter, 22 March 12, 2004, from Tim Sale and 23 Eric Robinson to Ellen Anderson, 24 Minnesota Senate, with Excerpt 25 from Hansard 6643 6440 1 2 3 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS 4 5 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE 6 7 8 9 MH/NCN 90: Provide copies of updated terms 10 of water regime alterations 6558 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6441 1 WEDNESDAY, MAY 26, 2004 2 Upon commencing at 9:08 a.m. 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, ladies and 5 gentlemen. The only person who seems to be not on 6 time this morning is me so let's correct that 7 immediately and get on with it. 8 Mr. Grewar, you have some changes or 9 corrections to make in regards to the filings? 10 MR. GREWAR: Yes, Mr. Chairman. My 11 apologies. The exhibit numbers went quite off kilter 12 yesterday. It was a computer error where I was using 13 two different files on two different computers and so 14 I ended up using numbers twice. I've now, I think, 15 sorted out everything. And so if you'll bear with 16 me, I'd just like to read into the record the 17 corrections to the assignment of certain exhibit 18 numbers yesterday. 19 Starting with the exhibits for the MMF, 20 the Manitoba Metis Federation, the first one I'd like 21 to correct is MMF-1001, it now becomes MMF-1003. And 22 that is the summary of results from Wuskwatim 23 workshops, MMF-1003. 24 The next logical correction would be MMF 25 1002 becomes MMF-1004. And that's the Manitoba Metis 6442 1 Federation response to interrogatories CEC/MMF/EIS 1 2 to 7, that is now exhibit number MMF-1004. 3 And the final two are TREE exhibits, 4 TREE/RCM. And the first being TREE/RCM-1008 becomes 5 TREE/RCM-1009. And that is Wuskwatim advancement 6 with adjusted basic forecast. 7 And finally, Mr. Chairman, Exhibit 8 TREE/RCM 1009 becomes TREE/RCM 1010. And that is 9 Wuskwatim advancement with adjusted basic forecast 10 with 400 GWh revision. 11 So my apologies. I think that's now all 12 corrected in the record. One final note, Mr. 13 Chairman. Respecting the transcript is that at the 14 Commission's request and direction, the transcript 15 from yesterday has been prepared but not released. 16 We have asked Hydro and NCN to take a look at the 17 section that was causing some concern yesterday, that 18 they had requested to be stricken. They are going to 19 provide us later today with their request in the 20 sense of letting the Commissioners review the 21 transcript and determine what sections should be 22 excised, at which time we can advise the 23 transcription service who will carry out that and 24 ensure that those sections of the record that the 25 Commission would prefer excised is done so before 6443 1 it's posted. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. This is day 27 3 and our order paper says we will now hear Trapline 4 18. So, Mr. McIvor, it's your show. 5 MR. G. MCIVOR: It's May 26th today, 6 right? 7 MR. GREWAR: Yes, it is. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Day 27 of the hearings. 9 MR. G. MCIVOR: Oh, I thought you said 10 May 27. 11 MR. GREWAR: If I can get you each to 12 state your names for the record, please? 13 MR. D. MCIVOR: Donald McIvor. 14 MR. G. MCIVOR: Greg McIvor. 15 MR. GREWAR: Gentlemen, are you aware 16 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 17 mislead this Commission? 18 MR. D. MCIVOR: Yes. 19 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yes. 20 MR. GREWAR: Knowing this, do you promise 21 to tell only the truth in proceedings before the 22 Commission? 23 MR. D. MCIVOR: Yes. 24 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yes. 25 MR. GREWAR: Thank you very much, sirs. 6444 1 (DONALD MCIVOR: SWORN) 2 (GREG MCIVOR: SWORN) 3 4 MR. G. MCIVOR: Mr. Grewar, can you maybe 5 just tell me, what is the penalty for misleading this 6 hearing just in case, just in case I break my 7 promise. 8 MR. GREWAR: It would be an offence under 9 the Evidence Act and I wouldn't presume to know what 10 that penalty might be, but it is a part of our 11 legislation that the Commission's proceedings fall 12 under the Evidence Act. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: You get locked up in here 14 for the rest of your life. 15 MR. G. MCIVOR: Oh, no. All right. 16 Okay. What we're going to be doing is as I 17 understand the video that we are about to review form 18 parts of Manitoba Hydro and NCN's submission on 19 behalf of Trapline 18 for the Environmental Impact 20 Statement. So what I'd like to do is take you 21 through that video just to show you -- give you guys 22 an idea of where Trapline 18 is in Manitoba, what 23 Trapline 18 is, what it consists of in terms of 24 waterways, trees, shrubs, bogs, marsh, just those 25 types of things so you can visualize where, you know, 6445 1 as we continue with our presentation, what we're 2 talking about in terms of Trapline 18. 3 So with that, I'll ask the gentleman to 4 start the video. And while that's working its way 5 through the system here, one of the things I do want 6 to do for the folks to acknowledge here while they 7 are watching this video, Manitoba Hydro picked up my 8 brothers, Norman and Donald, at Setting Lake Wayside 9 Park which is a couple of kilometres from Wabowden on 10 the east side of Setting Lake, transported them up to 11 Trapline 18 and about half an hour later, brought 12 them back to Setting Lake Wayside Park, dropped them 13 off, took off to Thompson and gassed up. Fuelled up 14 the chopper, came back, picked them up again, left a 15 couple passengers behind at Setting Lake and 16 continued on with the, whatever they call it, 17 reconnaissance of Trapline 18. 18 So basically here we just crossed the 19 Setting Lake and are heading into the Grass River 20 system or along the Grass River system. And 21 hopefully it gets better than this. 22 This is actually the original video that 23 we received from Manitoba Hydro. There is no audio 24 to this so what I'm going to try to do is just 25 provide you with some idea of where we're going and 6446 1 what we are looking at. 2 Basically we're on Trapline number 3 of 3 the Wabowden registered trapline area. We've come to 4 the fork in the river that leads to the Grass River 5 on the left and to the Ferguson Creek directly in 6 front of us. 7 This was taken May 14th, 2003. So as you 8 know, there's been some drought in this province for 9 the last couple years. The water is pretty low and I 10 think when you look at this video, what you'll see 11 is, you know, a really accurate blueprint of the 12 waterways, streams, swamps, bogs, moss, moss areas, 13 fens, whatever you want to call them, in this whole 14 area. 15 MR. MAYER: Which river is that? 16 MR. G. MCIVOR: That's Ferguson Creek. 17 In this -- on Setting Lake, there was an old trading 18 post that belonged to the Hudson Bay Company. One of 19 the first explorers that came from Europe had a 20 trading post on Setting Lake right by Setting Lake 21 cottage owners, cottage development which is just, 22 you know, like three or four kilometers from Sasigui 23 Rapids. And on the mouth of the Grass River when we 24 cross Setting Lake to come on this trip, on the 25 right-hand side there used to be a little community 6447 1 or a community that was consisted of 100 per cent of 2 the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation members. And along 3 the Grassy where we came there, and at the mouth of 4 the Grassy, there's a graveyard, a couple of burial 5 sites along the Grassy that -- and also on Fish Creek 6 where the -- you know, there's a family member from 7 NCN buried there by the name of McDonald. 8 NCN at one point, their members, because 9 of the proximity to Wuskwatim, used to travel back 10 and forth from the Setting Lake area to the Wuskwatim 11 Lake where they did a lot of the trading and, you 12 know, those types of things with the Hudson Bay. 13 And, you know, Setting Lake at one time 14 was very productive in terms of fish, pickerel, 15 jackfish, whitefish, you know, all those types of 16 things. 17 So, you know, that just gives you an idea 18 of some of the history. And as you know, and Bob has 19 mentioned a couple times, that the Grass River is, 20 you know, a national canoe route. I don't know if 21 it's got its designation but it is a national canoe 22 route that people come up from all over the world to 23 travel. 24 So as we get into this area here, what 25 you're going to be looking at as we come around this 6448 1 corner is Trapline 18. You're going to be looking at 2 Goose Rapids and then just above that is Goose Falls 3 which is where the main cabin of Trapline 18 is 4 situated, on the northwest side of the falls. So 5 that's the trapline right in there. And you can see 6 our dock that we've had to extend a few times and 7 then take down a few times just to get away from the 8 water levels as they go up and down. But this is a 9 beautiful spot any time of the year. And that's why 10 we selected it for the site of our cabin. 11 So this is just to give you an idea why 12 people do the things they do. 13 MR. MAYER: Is that the falls or the 14 rapids? 15 MR. D. MCIVOR: That's the falls. Some 16 of those spruce trees that you're looking at are in 17 excess of 120, 130 feet high. The circumference at 18 the bottom could reach up to about 32 inches in 19 diameter. 20 Now we're heading down the Ferguson Creek 21 towards Trapline 18. What you're looking at is what 22 used to be some trees but, you know, through various 23 changes in the environment, you know, they had been 24 pushed back and forth and rubbed out and, you know, 25 that type of thing. So we lost a lot of vegetation 6449 1 and you'll see some new growth in that area as well. 2 What you see here is because of the low 3 water conditions, what the traditional level is right 4 about here along this, before it gets dark here on 5 the edge. So it's down, you know, probably three 6 feet, two or three feet at this point. 7 So we're going to be getting into the 8 Rocky Lake area. And you'll see as we go through 9 this, you'll see a couple of shots that show you the 10 panoramic landscape or horizon sort of thing. And if 11 you look hard enough, you can see Wuskwatim from 12 there, just a glimpse, you can catch a little glimpse 13 of it. We are not all that far by air. It's only 14 like 24 kilometres as straight as a crow flies. 15 And you've got to understand, too, we're 16 flying at about 2,000 feet on this flight. So some 17 of those trees you're looking at are actually taller 18 than they look. 19 Rocky Lake is where we initially started, 20 like where we had our cabin or our prospector's tent 21 basically which was, you know, wood construction the 22 first four feet and then we use a prospector's tent 23 over top. And it was on the other -- right in here 24 is where we used to have our main cabin. And this is 25 Ferguson Creek, this area here, this winding little 6450 1 river. 2 So you can see where the -- you know, 3 from the views, you know what the landscape looks 4 like as well. You could see the cuts in through the 5 forests and, you know, from other waterways. And a 6 lot of this area that you're looking at here is on 7 the north side of Trapline 18 as we fly west to the 8 NCN area. We've lost access to that area because of 9 fallen trees and debris and, you know, loss of use in 10 that area along that Nelson House, old Nelson House 11 winter road, you know, because of just the 12 conditions, you know, caused by water fluctuations. 13 So you can see a lot of the area where, 14 you know, there are trees that have been just kind of 15 plucked out of certain areas. This used to be all 16 forested. Now there's just a couple of trees here 17 and there. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Where it's bare and 19 there's no trees, what's that? 20 MR. G. MCIVOR: That's mostly silt, mud, 21 clay in this area here, and moss, you know, just 22 grass from this area here, willows, red willows. So 23 you can see that -- you know, on occasion, this area 24 that you see, some of these areas where it's been 25 burnt out, it looks like it's burnt out, when it 6451 1 floods, you can basically cut across all those little 2 winding areas. You can cut across there with a 40 3 horsepower, 16 foot Lund if you want, on occasion. 4 And it's like this area, for example, you can go 5 straight across from there to over here sort of thing 6 or further up, just because of the high water levels. 7 So you can see a lot of the effects of 8 something adjusting the environment on the river. 9 And it's not just a drought that created that in the 10 last couple of years. You know, it's just over time, 11 you know, I think changes in not only water levels 12 and the causes of high and low water levels, which 13 you'll see as we go through this, you know, how that 14 affected that whole environment, that whole terrain. 15 You can see a lot of this area here, you 16 can see Wuskwatim Lake way in the background there, 17 just north of this little lake that you'll see again 18 here. It's called Fox Lake and it's a lake that we 19 used to use. It's very close to the old Nelson House 20 road and we normally go up to Nelson House, cut 21 across to this end here and then travel back. 22 So you could -- like there's different 23 types of trees in this area as well, like vegetation, 24 a lot of tamaracks, you know, a lot of spruce, a lot 25 of poplar, aspen, jack pine. You know, just a whole 6452 1 broad selection of trees. 2 So in here what you'll see as well is, 3 you know, some beaver houses along the river. You 4 won't see a lot of them but the ones that you will 5 see are basically dead. You will see a few beaver 6 dams, not a lot. Some of the beaver dams that you're 7 going to see are actually trees across the creek and 8 just sort of continuous from one side to the other. 9 So they look like a beaver dam from 2,000 feet. You 10 could see all this area here along the creek but 11 there's also different creeks that feed into the 12 Ferguson Creek as well. 13 MS. AVERY KINEW: Is that still your 14 trapline? 15 MR. G. MCIVOR: That's still our 16 trapline, yeah. What I'll do towards the end is I'll 17 show you where our trapline ends and where NCN 18 trapline ends as well because we go to Trapline 63 19 and Trapline 64 within the NCN area. And we'll show 20 you those areas. 21 I do have some -- there's some little 22 maps here that were provided by Hydro just to show 23 you the chopper ride and it's the red line that shows 24 you where they took us by chopper and how it all fits 25 together. 6453 1 MR. MAYER: On this map, Don, the portion 2 of the lake and the large lake, are we looking at 3 Pakwa and Setting on the bottom left-hand corner? 4 MR. ABRA: Can you speak up, please? 5 MR. D. MCIVOR: Yeah, I went to the 6 junction or the Grass River or Ferguson when we went 7 over the lake just past Trapline number 3. 8 MR. G. MCIVOR: So you can see the 9 different colour in the water here, it's a little 10 darker than the brown that you're looking at this 11 stuff here. There's a little haze of water that are 12 a different colour from the main creek. You get blue 13 and you get brown. 14 Okay. Here's another little beaver dam. 15 The Ferguson Creek is down here and there's other 16 areas that feed in here, like Fox Lake, that Little 17 Fox Lake area. And there's Big Fox Lake as well. 18 It's further north of that. 19 A lot of these lakes, if you look at the 20 map, there are no names on them. So you know, if you 21 look for names as you go through this, you won't find 22 some of the names because there is none. 23 This area here is all good forest. The 24 clay and silt along the shorelines, you can see how 25 much the shore has eroded along the creek. You can 6454 1 see from side to side here what it looks like when 2 you are in a drought. 3 So you can tell why, you know, in the 4 early years, all we could use along this river was 5 about a 4 horse motor to get from one end to the 6 other. But on occasion, we've been able to throw 40s 7 and 30s, 18, 16 foot Lunds and you don't have to 8 worry about anything, just fly right through there. 9 So in a couple of seconds here, we'll be 10 taking a shortcut, getting beamed right to Setting 11 Lake in a few seconds here. 12 Right about now, we'll be turning and 13 heading back to Setting Lake landing and it's just 14 straight across. So it's not going to take too long 15 I don't think. 16 So this is just some of the area that is 17 south on the Trapline 18 area. And then you'll get 18 into Trapline 17 as well which is in the Rosenberry 19 Lake, Davis Creek area as well. Yeah, this is just 20 on our way back to Setting Lake. 21 MR. MAYER: Where are you taking off and 22 landing from, Greg? 23 MR. G. MCIVOR: Setting Lake Wayside Park 24 directly west of Wabowden. It's across from the gas 25 station. 6455 1 MR. MAYER: The one the community built 2 with its Hydro compensation? 3 MR. G. MCIVOR: The one that the 4 community built and then couldn't use because of the 5 Hydro compensation. 6 MR. MAYER: It was open this weekend by 7 the way. 8 MR. G. MCIVOR: Is that the deal that you 9 wrote up there, Bob? 10 MR. MAYER: I said it was open this 11 weekend. 12 MR. G. MCIVOR: Oh, I thought you said 13 you wrote up the deal on that. 14 This little trip back is about another 15 three minutes. So we'll have a look around, enjoy 16 the view. If you want anything to drink, coffee is 17 in the back. 18 MS. AVERY KINEW: That's still your 19 trapline? 20 MR. G. MCIVOR: That's Setting Lake here. 21 Here is the mouth of the Grassy here. This is the 22 mouth of the Grassy. Pakwa is back there. We're 23 heading back to Setting Lake, crossing the ice. 24 We're heading back to Setting Lake. Right at the 25 landing here, there used to be an old fish plant and 6456 1 ice house. There used to be a little community that 2 lived on this side of Setting Lake that you process 3 the fish and they had little houses back in the bush 4 here and the fish plant used to be located right 5 here, right on this point. There's a cement pad in 6 there that you can see. You know, so the big boats 7 would come in and just right up to the packing plant 8 that was located right here. I don't know if they 9 will do that any time soon. 10 This is a little tepee village that 11 the -- set up by the community. Oh, now we're back 12 on Ferguson Creek. See that, pretty quick. Don't 13 have to take that seven minute ride back. 14 So you can see all the swaths that are 15 cut through these forests here where the creek's 16 waterways were all the way through. I don't know 17 what happened there but we missed something. 18 So this is Ferguson Creek here. There's 19 that panoramic view looking for some mountains. I 20 don't see any. But Hydro's charts go like this, 21 showing you mountains in that area. Here's that 22 Little Fox Lake. And here's Wuskwatim right over 23 there. Wuskwatim is not that far. 24 Okay. If you look at your little map 25 there, I don't know if you can see the times on it, 6457 1 but there's a little lake up at the Ferguson Creek 2 west. This is what we call Ferguson Lake. So you 3 can see a lot of the shores dried up, the land, the 4 marsh, bog, it's just like it's been baked and 5 cracked. You see the different colours of water here 6 along the ways. We'll show you a little bit more of 7 that as we go along, a little beaver dam. 8 MR. MAYER: It would be a nice canoe trip 9 if you can access it from the top here. 10 MR. G. MCIVOR: You can. Just go to 11 Nelson House and you can come right across from the 12 south end of Three Point Lake to Old Burntwood, you 13 can come right in there. We'll even make you 14 breakfast. You can see that in that area there 15 there's two different colours of water. There's a 16 little sort of like a little, not a beaver dam but 17 there's a barrier between two waterways, different 18 water sources. One is blue, the other is a little 19 bit darker. 20 This is -- we're heading into -- and if 21 you see the video jump once in a while and the 22 scenery has changed, it's because this video has been 23 edited as well, not by us. I did hand out a little 24 piece of paper that shows you where the edits are. 25 You can see a lot of the trees falling into the river 6458 1 or dying and falling into the creek. So what ends up 2 happening is you have to cut those out with power 3 saws and whether you are in a boat or on a skidoo. 4 Back in the early seventies, this line 5 was one of the most productive lines in the Wabowden 6 registered trapline area. My brother had won some 7 awards for production that were offered by the Hudson 8 Bay Company who used to buy the furs at that time. 9 Around 1970 in this area here, 1978 I 10 should say, when lynx prices varied from $200, $300 11 to $1,400, $1,500 a pelt on Trapline 18, we harvested 12 close to 87 pelts that year with an average of about 13 $800 to $900 per lynx. So that was a very nice year. 14 Christmas was really nice. 15 So we're going to be travelling back onto 16 the Ferguson Creek here right away. And this area 17 that you're looking at is basically the Nelson House 18 management resource area on this section here. This 19 is probably in trapline 64 -- 62, 63, 64 in that 20 range because they are right here actually, in here 21 on the trapline. And right as you go down here, this 22 heads to the Nelson House Management Resource area or 23 NCN Resource Management area. This is the Ferguson 24 Creek continuing on. Our trapline ends right about 25 here in this vicinity here and, you know, we'll just 6459 1 continue into the Trapline 63 of the NCN Resource 2 Management area. 3 I think we travel about eight kilometres 4 past the Trapline 18 boundary. So this area 5 covers -- this area covers here the one kilometre 6 distance that Manitoba Hydro is going to be building 7 the transmission line. So you can see quite a ways 8 down this area here that the water seems to be 9 consistently flowing and somebody has been cutting 10 roads into the bush here. This is all swamp and bog 11 and fen. 12 So when you look at the EIS document that 13 they prepared with the transmission lines, I'll show 14 you a couple of examples off this on this area here. 15 This area here used to be, back to the day when 16 Jimmie Flett and old Roddy Garrick and all those 17 folks were around, they used to be for goose nesting 18 and caribou calving and all kinds of other activities 19 in this area here. So this is all Nelson House 20 Resource Management area you're looking at. 21 That little lake that you just saw was on 22 Trapline 63. So all this stuff here, it's all bog or 23 fen or just dry, hey, you know. So you can see the 24 little outcrops that are here, you know, on the 25 video. 6460 1 And, you know, we do have some drill hole 2 results from this area dating back to 1959 up to 1970 3 that showed a lot of abandonment by mining companies 4 because there is, you know, 26 and 100 metres of 5 overburden basically. So this is what Nelson House 6 looks like from our point of view on Trapline 18. A 7 lot of swamp and bog and different things happening 8 there. 9 So that's why you could see those direct 10 connections from Trapline 18 to 63, 64, 47, you know, 11 all the way up to, you know, that end. 12 And as you've seen at the falls, the 13 water flows from west to east on Ferguson Creek in 14 that direction or south to north if you're heading to 15 Hudson Bay, to the Hudson Bay, the sea, the ocean or 16 whatever it is. 17 So we're just cruising around, checking 18 out the scenery. You could see a lot of these little 19 tributaries off Ferguson Creek where there has been a 20 lot of activity and, you know, with the experience 21 that I'm sure a lot of NCN members had over the last 22 30 years. Some of those little activities that you 23 see are caused by flooding, high waters, fluctuations 24 in water. That's all damage caused by high water. 25 For years, we've tried to, you know, 6461 1 bring this to the attention of folks that were 2 responsible. And you know, they said this was all an 3 act of God. Where is Mr. Brennan? I'd like to speak 4 to God. 5 So what you see here, like this, you 6 know, devastation and destruction of, you know, some 7 very pristine forests, a very productive trapline at 8 one time. You know, every time they open and close 9 Notigi, when they use South Indian Lake as a 10 reservoir and close Notigi, this is what happens as 11 well. When they want to feed the Lower Nelson, I 12 understand through some testimony evidence that is 13 provided that it takes six weeks from Notigi to the 14 Lower Nelson. So that CRD Augmented Flow Program 15 operates I imagine on average of 12 to 16 weeks for 16 the winter and summer programs. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: How much longer? 18 MR. G. MCIVOR: How much longer is it? 19 About an hour and a couple of minutes. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, if we're having to 21 watch one way and then the other way back -- 22 MR. G. MCIVOR: No. If you look at that 23 little map we gave you, what they did was they went 24 up -- there are three branches on the Ferguson Creek. 25 So they are all different areas, just different 6462 1 routes that we use on our trapline. 2 I'd really appreciate if we can view this 3 video because it does form part of the evidence that 4 you guys just made comments on, where it's an act of 5 God, it's nature. So let's enjoy the movie. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, you show it, I'll 7 sleep. 8 MR. G. MCIVOR: So what we're doing is 9 just where we are right now is just an area where 10 there's some branches within the Ferguson Creek that 11 lead different areas. We're going to be heading back 12 to that shortly. But you can -- 13 MS. AVERY KINEW: What lake is that? 14 MR. G. MCIVOR: I think this is the 15 Ferguson Lake. So you can see the bottom of the 16 lakes here as we fly over them. There's some trees 17 across the creek there, right in here and here. So a 18 lot of that stuff is just falling across. I call 19 that Dale Hutchison's the beaver dam. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, trees eventually do 21 fall. 22 MR. G. MCIVOR: They fall over when the 23 shoreline is eroded just like there's fish in the 24 water. 25 MS. AVERY KINEW: Can you show us on this 6463 1 big map here where you're at? It's the same as that 2 little map. 3 MS. AVERY KINEW: Where are you right 4 now? 5 MR. G. MCIVOR: Right there, right there. 6 There's a junction there, a little junction. The 7 shoreline along this area where Dale has been 8 avoiding for the last few seconds is fairly high but 9 you could see a lot of the trees, they are falling in 10 and dying along the shores and in the creek. You 11 know, so it takes a lot of effort to clean all that 12 up, to cut all that up and get it out of the river 13 because you have to take it right out otherwise, you 14 know, the next day or year from now or a week, a 15 month, you can hit that with your boat or your motor 16 and, you know, it costs, you know, on average $400 to 17 $600 to rebuild the lower unit on an outboard. 18 So I'm not sure what Dale was looking at. 19 But anyway, the area we're heading into is again off 20 another branch of the Ferguson Creek. You can see 21 some of the contributing waterways, you know, all 22 this area here, in this area to the Ferguson and into 23 like the swamps and bogs and stuff like that, ravines 24 that, you know, where the water comes up and flows 25 into these lakes. We call these -- so we're just 6464 1 heading into some marsh land, swamp area. This used 2 to be all swamp, the kind of swamp where you plow 3 through a rat hole and it looks 11, 12 feet deep or 4 whatever. 5 There used to be a lot of rats in this 6 area because of the marsh. You hardly see any beaver 7 dams or beaver houses along this waterway because 8 what has happened is they moved off into other swamps 9 to build their houses. One of the things that 10 beavers do is when the water levels are unpredictable 11 that they can't control or at least stabilize for 12 their own uses, they will move. They will move off 13 major waterways and tributaries to get away from 14 that. They're just like everybody else. 15 A lot of this stuff here is all clay and 16 silt, you know. And normally you can tell by the 17 type of growth, whether it's spruce or poplar or jack 18 pine or what kind of vegetation or what kind of soils 19 there are. We're not experts, we're not engineers, 20 we're not anything. We're just trappers. This is 21 just our experience that we're sharing, we're sharing 22 with you. 23 So we've got about another 12, 13 minutes 24 if you can bear with us. 25 So in here, you can see that Little Fox 6465 1 Lake again, right in there. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this your presentation 3 when this is over? This is the end of your 4 presentation? 5 MR. G. MCIVOR: No. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you please begin 7 with your presentation and -- 8 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yeah, after we -- all I'm 9 viewing is evidence that's been filed with this 10 Commission. So I have some -- 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Maybe you should have 12 viewed your film before. 13 MR. G. MCIVOR: I did and that's why I'm 14 showing it again because I think it's important that 15 you see this. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: This is not useful, you 17 know. 18 MR. G. MCIVOR: It isn't? 19 THE CHAIRMAN: No. 20 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, if you've already 21 made up your mind, it's not useful. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll show you what you've 23 got to do. 24 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yeah. Well, we'll talk 25 about that. 6466 1 MR. MAYER: Would you be so kind, Greg, 2 to tell us what it is we're supposed to see from 3 this. You're not explaining the direction of flow. 4 You're not explaining how you allege the water gets 5 from Notigi control to the site. I mean you've got 6 to show us or at least explain the direction of flow 7 if that's what this is intended to do. 8 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yeah. That's what I was 9 going to be doing. But as I indicated in my brief, 10 my introduction was that, you know, for the benefit 11 of people that have never been up in the Trapline 18 12 area or on a trapline, I just wanted to give them an 13 idea of what we're talking about. 14 But if you look back to around the 34 15 minute mark, what I had showed you was the end of 16 Trapline 18. 17 MR. MAYER: Yes? 18 MR. G. MCIVOR: And we exceeded eight 19 kilometres over our trapline boundary into the NCN 20 resource management area. And at 2,000 feet when you 21 look towards Nelson House, I would suggest that you 22 would be able to see at least an additional 10 to 15 23 kilometres in that direction. 24 So if you look at your little map there, 25 it's the Old Burntwood River and the Wemapathe River 6467 1 area and Three Point Lake are within kilometres of 2 that area. 3 So in the May 14th engineering report 4 that was stamped by Mr. Glen Cook of Manitoba Hydro 5 prepared by Soiowy from Manitoba Hydro Planning, it 6 says that there are no plausible connections. But 7 yet, you know, we just showed you evidence. 8 MR. MAYER: But, Mr. McIvor, you didn't 9 show us the evidence. That's my concern. You showed 10 us what you said was a swamp area which appeared to 11 be the source of Ferguson Creek. And then you showed 12 us a bunch of dry land and then you showed us some 13 more water that may have been flowing the other way 14 but you didn't mention that. So I think most of us 15 missed that but I clearly saw what I thought was the 16 source of Ferguson Creek. And that's what you told 17 us it was. You said it was swamp area and then you 18 recall you said -- 19 MR. G. MCIVOR: I didn't say it was the 20 source. 21 MR. MAYER: -- and there's a bunch of dry 22 land. But it appeared to be the source because it 23 didn't go upstream from the swamp? 24 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, no, because Hydro's 25 dime, it's their chopper so they just took us where 6468 1 they wanted to take us. They just showed you what 2 they wanted us to see. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: You are showing this. 4 MR. G. MCIVOR: This is what we got from 5 Manitoba Hydro as a result of the May 14th ride. It 6 forms part of the EIS I assume. I mean that's what 7 they based their report on. You guys made reference 8 to that in the EIS. So all I'm showing you is what 9 they filed. If you haven't seen it, then maybe you 10 guys should do your job as well. 11 MS. AVERY KINEW: This is a trip that you 12 designed. 13 MR. G. MCIVOR: No. This is Hydro. 14 Yeah, Dale Hutchison and Carl Johnson. 15 MR. MAYER: Which of you were on the 16 aircraft? 17 MR. G. MCIVOR: Donald. Donald and 18 Norman and Bryan Hart as well as Dale Hutchison and 19 Carl Johnson from your northern operations. So we 20 didn't design anything, we just went for a ride. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: You're showing it. 22 MR. G. MCIVOR: And we're just showing it 23 because from what I understand, it forms part of your 24 evidence regarding Trapline 18. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: No, it doesn't. 6469 1 MR. MAYER: I haven't seen this in the 2 EIS. I am assuming if it's filed as an exhibit or 3 it's about to be filed as an exhibit, I don't know. 4 Sorry, I just missed your point when I thought I saw 5 the source of Ferguson Creek. 6 MR. G. MCIVOR: There's the second cabin 7 at the north end there, halfway up the trapline. 8 MR. SARGEANT: Your cabin? 9 MR. G. MCIVOR: That's our cabin, built 10 around 1978. It's about 10 feet in height. And this 11 is just across from it. It's all dried up right now. 12 But I think if you'd bear with me, I think in the 13 Power Point presentation, you'll see some of the 14 evidence that we have that causes our concerns. 15 So we're just a few minutes away, like 16 six, seven minutes away from completing this video. 17 What you will see towards the end here is 18 where we go into another trapline on the NCN resource 19 management area. And you know, Bob, to try to answer 20 your question, I mean, you know, those creeks that 21 you see, the water flows into Trapline 18 from, you 22 know, on the other side of our trapline from the NCN 23 area. Because of the limited flight that we were 24 involved in, you know, we know it extends into both 25 63 and 64 traplines and possibly into 47 which is 6470 1 adjacent to Three Point Lake, in between Wuskwatim 2 and Three Point and 41. So a lot of this stuff is, 3 you know, we just we were limited. We don't own 4 choppers so we can't take our own rides. We have 5 boats and skidoos. 6 MR. MAYER: Are you telling us then that 7 this video doesn't show that? 8 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, what it does is 9 this video was provided by Manitoba Hydro. 10 MR. MAYER: I understand that. Does it 11 or does it not show the linkage? 12 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yeah, it does, it shows. 13 MR. MAYER: Where did we miss that, Don? 14 MR. G. MCIVOR: I'll show you again in 15 the Power Point if you want. This is one of the 16 first lakes that we trap for rats and beaver and 17 everything else, the swamp that connects another 18 little lake that you're going to view in a few 19 seconds. And one of the things that you'll see here 20 is something that hasn't happened on Trapline 18 and 21 its history. Like this area, you know, as you can 22 see, is a lot of swamp and everything else. And I 23 understand that it's very difficult to measure what 24 type of waters. But this second lake here that you 25 see, you know, where, you know, you could see the 6471 1 bottom where it's all dry. You know, we've never 2 experienced this in Trapline 18. 3 MR. MAYER: What is it you haven't 4 experienced? 5 MR. G. MCIVOR: The drought, the dried up 6 lake. 7 MR. MAYER: But I thought your argument 8 was that they were flooding you out? 9 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, they are flooding 10 and this is a drought, Bob. And like everybody else 11 in Manitoba, I think Trapline 18 is in Manitoba, so 12 we experience the same things. But I think 13 compounded with the Churchill River Diversion and the 14 Augmented Flow Program, when it's drought, it gets 15 even drier now since they built that project, so. 16 MR. MAYER: That makes no sense at all to 17 me. Are you suggesting that Ferguson Creek is 18 backing up or running backwards? 19 MR. G. MCIVOR: What I'll show you here, 20 Bob, is if I have -- 21 MR. MAYER: I'm trying to follow your 22 argument and I'm trying to follow your video and I 23 know that your argument is that you want to show us 24 that as a result of releasing water from Notigi, you 25 get flooded out? 6472 1 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yeah. 2 MR. MAYER: But now you're telling us 3 that when on a drought, somehow Churchill River 4 Diversion, which puts more water through the area, is 5 stealing your water? Is that what you're suggesting? 6 MR. G. MCIVOR: That's what happens. 7 MR. MAYER: Thank you. I have your 8 point. 9 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yeah. So I mean when 10 they open and close the gate, they either stop the 11 water or they let it go. So if they stop it, it 12 affects us. If they let it go, it affects us. 13 So this is a Nelson House Management 14 Resource area that we're talking about. This is 15 Trapline 63, 64, you know, where these creeks just 16 keep going and going. Because we haven't been making 17 that trip by chopper or otherwise in the air where 18 you can see these types of things, what we're 19 suggesting is that they do connect, you know, from 20 the Three Point and Churchill River Diversion, from 21 that south end when it backs up down the Old 22 Burntwood and down Wemapathe River, that through that 23 swamp, through the swamp, what's done is cut new 24 trails of waterways into the Trapline 18 area through 25 the swamp and the bog. 6473 1 And I'll show you some other information. 2 So this is all like Trapline 64 of Nelson House 3 flowing into Trapline -- 4 MR. MAYER: Which direction are we now 5 travelling? 6 MR. G. MCIVOR: We're travelling west and 7 that water flows into Trapline 18, all this water 8 here that you see. And there's other tributaries. 9 MR. SARGEANT: Is that natural water? 10 MR. G. MCIVOR: That's not natural water. 11 On this flight here as well, if look at any map, 12 national and topographical maps, even the Hydro map 13 that was provided to you on the wall right here, you 14 know, there's an area that has been connected that 15 was never connected before. It's just kind of 16 joined. So because we've never had -- you know, 17 we've never had the luxury of owning a chopper or 18 affording to own a chopper, we didn't know what was 19 creating a lot of these problems for the last 28 20 years because we are always on the ground, in a boat, 21 on a skidoo. 22 But this is just the example of your 23 question, Bob. When we get to -- we're going to be 24 going to Goose Falls here right away. We're going to 25 be cutting from here in about 10 seconds back to 6474 1 Goose Falls. 2 MR. MAYER: Goose Falls is on what? 3 MR. G. MCIVOR: That's on Trapline 18. 4 MR. MAYER: It's on Ferguson Creek? 5 MR. G. MCIVOR: It's on Ferguson Creek. 6 Some people call it Ferguson Falls, we call it Goose 7 Falls. But here, see Goose Falls area or Ferguson 8 Creek right here. But over the years, if you look at 9 this side here, all this area here, this is where the 10 water comes rushing down and it just backsplashes 11 into here and just pulls everything into the river, 12 over the falls, down the Ferguson into the Grassy 13 River system. 14 MR. SARGEANT: And water comes down that 15 whole area? 16 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yeah. 17 MR. SARGEANT: Why wouldn't that be act 18 of God water? 19 MR. G. MCIVOR: Because if you look at 20 the -- if you remember the panoramic shots, I mean 21 the elevations that Hydro is providing you, you know, 22 I think are measurements of outcrops like you saw in 23 the swamp where there's little islands, in between 24 all the swamp, you know, that's the type of terrain 25 that we're in on Trapline 18, 62, 63, 64, 41, 47, all 6475 1 the way back. So naturally water will, you know, 2 find its way. I mean it will go wherever it wants to 3 go basically. 4 So when you look at this map here that 5 was provided by Manitoba Hydro as a result of the 6 reconnaissance trip as well, this is a national 7 topographical map. And when you look at the Three 8 Point Lake and directly to the Grassy River, it's all 9 swamp, it's all designated swamp. 10 When you look at Manitoba Hydro's map and 11 you look at this little legend down here, this yellow 12 area is medium to high elevation. So if this guy has 13 it as swamp, how can this be medium to high 14 elevation? There are some discrepancies. And like I 15 said, we're not engineers, we're not lawyers, we just 16 have some experience up there. And if people have to 17 go through this type of initiatives to make it look 18 like an act of God, then maybe that's what it is. 19 So I don't know if you guys want, it's 20 ten after 10:00, Mr. Lecuyer. If you want to take a 21 break, we can set up for the Power Point. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, we'll do that. We'll 23 take a break until 25 after. Thank you. 24 25 6476 1 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 10:14 A.M. and 2 RECONVENED AT 10:32 A.M.) 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, ladies and 5 gentlemen. Sit down and watch the show which Mr. 6 McIvor is going to lead us through. 7 MR. G. MCIVOR: Before we get into the 8 Power Point, Donald is just going to make some 9 introductory comments as part of the Power Point 10 presentation. 11 MR. D. MCIVOR: Good morning, ladies and 12 gentlemen, elders, members of the Clean Environment 13 Commission. My name is Donald McIvor Jr. I reside 14 in Wabowden, Manitoba all my life. I have trapped on 15 Trapline 18 since 1975. Became a licensed registered 16 trapline holder in 1980. My experience on the 17 trapline over the past 29 years has provided me an 18 opportunity to experience a lifestyle and culture, 19 once an accepted family practice in the seventies in 20 Wabowden. 21 The (inaudible) line was a sign at which 22 time the community on Trapline 18, we will produce in 23 excess of 40,000 plus (inaudible) trap line. In 24 1978, we made over 80,000 plus. 25 In the early years, I had an opportunity 6477 1 to teach my sons, nephews and brothers how to trap, 2 hunt, survive off the land. We still go up there to 3 hunt. I'm not comfortable taking them due to unsafe 4 and unpredictable conditions. I will still go to get 5 my quotas if it was reasonable and good trapping 6 conditions. I had to look for other work to offset 7 losses on the trapline over the past couple of years. 8 Since the operation of the CRD in 1976, 9 we had begun to see changes in water levels and it 10 became more evident in 1978. We had always listened 11 to Native Communications Incorporated as they would 12 give us the water levels on Footprint Lake and Nelson 13 House area which gave us an idea of what the levels 14 of water on Trapline 18 are likely to be. 15 And during the winter, the ice would drop 16 causing (inaudible) creating a lot of slush on 17 rivers. Sometime when travelling on the snowmobiles, 18 due to the sloping of the ice, snowmobile (inaudible) 19 would break and we had to walk back to camp and then 20 back to town. 21 Other times when travelling, we would 22 suddenly fall through the ice. Not much water 23 because ice hanging three to six feet in places. Or 24 we would just fall through the ice because a section 25 of the ice would just break off the trail and the 6478 1 snowmobile and sleds would sink. And we had to walk 2 home again. The snowmobiles would get stuck in the 3 slush and would ruin the engines trying to get them 4 out of the slush. And our sleighs would be too heavy 5 to pull and end up walking home again. Almost every 6 year, we had to rebuild our snowmobile engines a few 7 times and replace sleighs. 8 Whenever there was slushing, we would 9 lose traps because the water was coming up fast and 10 sometimes overnight, sometimes by morning, it would 11 be a couple of feet of slush. 12 Water levels coming up in late fall would 13 wash out all beaver feed down river from their 14 houses. Also high water caused the water animal, the 15 beaver, otter, rats move to other locations or 16 further in the bush. 17 High water levels dropping after 18 freeze-up created hanging ice and the river will be 19 so low that beaver houses would be froze up. 20 We've had hundreds of traps of different 21 sizes. In the fall and spring, we'd lose traps and 22 furs. In the fall, traps would be covered up by 23 slush and dig them out. And, for example, the water 24 came up in the middle of April causing early breakup 25 effects leaving ice three or four feet under water. 6479 1 And travelling in the boat, we experienced sheets of 2 ice area 50 feet long that would shoot up straight up 3 behind us and back down under water. 4 In the spring, the water levels would get 5 so low, we'd have problems travelling with a 4 horse. 6 In the spring, setting traps were difficult because 7 of high water and traps would be washed away with fur 8 and we would end up losing traps because high water, 9 shoreline erosion causing large trees and debris in 10 the river. 11 At one point in 1978, water levels were 12 approximately eight to 10 feet high, putting the 13 cabin at the north end four feet under water. 14 Over the years, during the summer, water 15 would come up in July and stay until October which 16 would sometimes go right down to almost drought 17 conditions making hunting and trapping a lot harder. 18 During the summer, the water was like 19 down, drought conditions, causing a lot of damage to 20 boats and outboards. 21 We had talked to an elder from NCN who 22 indicated he was familiar with the area and their 23 waterways that traditionally flowed into Trapline 18 24 and the Burntwood River, Three Point Lake area. He 25 indicated he often travelled on these waterways. The 6480 1 elder had also indicated that the area around and 2 including Trapline 18 and adjacent to NCN traplines 3 47 and 62, 63, 64 are a very marshy and swampy 4 terrain. He also said flooded 30 miles back toward 5 our trapline. 6 Mr. Edward Head, former exploration 7 driller for various mining companies conducted a lot 8 of drilling all over Northern Manitoba. Mr. Head had 9 indicated at one time he spent a substantial amount 10 of time west of Old Nelson House Road and had 11 conducted drilling tests around the area for Noranda 12 Mines, Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company. Mr. 13 Head had indicated they were (inaudible) satisfactory 14 during results due to the conditions which consisted 15 of overgrowth and water before he can reach anything 16 substantial. 17 Now with the new Hydro project, Wuskwatim 18 and the transmission line which goes near the 19 trapline, it would cut out trails causing animals to 20 travel elsewhere and it moves caribou, lynx, fox, 21 martin, fisher to move somewhere else. Recreation, 22 snowmobilers would have more access to more trails 23 scaring the animals away during the trapping season. 24 And Hydro personnel checking the lines would 25 interrupt the animals and scare them away. 6481 1 Elders Jimmy Flett, Roy Garrick, 2 Wellington Beebe, former trappers and residents of 3 Wabowden would tell us about the roads they had and 4 travelled at one time and showed us where rivers, 5 they used to paddle there. And also identified 6 portages that were used. 7 Mr. George (inaudible) former 8 owner/operator of Cross Lake Air Service in Wabowden 9 would inform us of water levels on our trapline in 10 the fall of that year and several other years before 11 on a few occasions, he would tell us that it was 12 flooded all the way back to Nelson House so it may 13 not even be worthwhile going out. 14 This description was confirmed by Mr. Ken 15 Hireman (ph), former chief pilot for Skyward Aviation 16 and the local Wabowden resident. In addition, Mr. 17 Kowalski, a pilot and fisherman referenced the same 18 condition. Because of fluctuated water levels and 19 unpredictable conditions, end of year trapping became 20 very expensive and dangerous. 21 The material used on the trapline that 22 were damaged over the years included Lund boats, 23 canoes, outboards, snow machines, sleighs, traps and 24 damage to cabins. That's it. Thank you. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 6482 1 MR. G. MCIVOR: To the Power Point 2 presentation. First slide is just the presentation. 3 The second one is just basically a history of the 4 trapline which my brother just went over. Just an 5 indication of the Rocky Lake area that we had used 6 with the prospector's tent and the construction of 7 the main cabin and the second cabin on Trapline 18. 8 Just to reiterate what my brother has 9 indicated, there will be significant changes that 10 have been undergone on Trapline 18 that you viewed on 11 the video as well. The fact that we've witnessed all 12 this flooding over the years. And he's also 13 indicated different water levels, eight to 10 feet. 14 There's also been increases of six to seven. 15 This is the second cabin that you viewed 16 on the video, 1978. The cabin, the water is right to 17 the base of the cabin and had receded by about two, 18 three feet as well by the time this photo was taken. 19 So that was a 1995 picture. 20 This is an aerial photo of Trapline 18 21 and with the maps, you could see the little lake on 22 the left-hand side, it looks like a pistol. That's 23 sort of our marker I guess. 24 MR. MAYER: What's the red line? 25 MR. G. MCIVOR: The red line is just to 6483 1 show you where our trapline is. It's on the upper 2 portion of this photo. 3 And that photo was from 1978. This one 4 is from 1998, different angle. The pistol is in the 5 bottom right-hand corner and that's Trapline 18. If 6 you look at this area here, this is Goose Rapids and 7 also Goose Falls and then into Rocky Lake here into 8 Ferguson. So you can see the little creek. 9 As my brother indicated around 1978, he 10 had harvested close to over 85 lynx and other 11 products, other animals as well that were a value of 12 $80,000 plus for 1978. And as you go through this 13 presentation, you will see photos of his sons and my 14 nephews I guess. 15 This is just some photos taken from the 16 Hydro video that you had previewed earlier. We had 17 Dale Hutchison from mitigation, Manitoba Hydro, Carl 18 Johnson, community liaison from the Manitoba Hydro 19 office up north. And Norm McIvor, Bryan Hart as an 20 observer and my brother Donald. 21 This is the Setting Lake area where we 22 took off with the helicopter. This is the part that 23 Mr. Mayer referred to. Hydro built that right there. 24 This is Goose Falls from the video that 25 you saw. This is the cabin, the main cabin. This is 6484 1 Goose Falls in August 2001 with high water levels. 2 You can see right here where this is dry on this 3 side, the water is right over in this area here. And 4 in the distance here is quite shorter from here to 5 here. 6 On Trapline 18, you know it's a spawning 7 area for a number of species, walleye, northern pike, 8 sauger, sturgeon suckers, white fish, bullheads or 9 burbot. Some other areas, this is the swamp marsh 10 area at the north end. We call it the north end but 11 it's actually west of in between the Nelson House 12 area and Trapline 18. 13 This is the creeks that you were looking 14 at that were dry. This is a photo from 1995 showing 15 the water right up to the -- right up to this area 16 here which is where the trees are. This is the 17 Ferguson Creek. As we indicated, there is different 18 branches along the Ferguson Creek and those were 19 identified on the map that was drawn out by Manitoba 20 Hydro on the helicopter ride. This is just upstream 21 of Ferguson Rapids, as you saw on the tape. A couple 22 of shots. This is what it would look like in here, 23 this area here with 2001 similar type conditions. 24 This is the Nelson House Management 25 Resource area, this is about where our trapline ends 6485 1 in this area down here. And you can see quite a 2 distance. I'm not sure how you'd measure that at 3 2,000 feet, what you'd be viewing sort of thing. 4 And this is just some other marsh and bog 5 area. So you can see the conditions not only in 6 Trapline 18 but in the Nelson House Resource 7 Management area as shown on the national 8 topographical map. It's all swamp on that side. 9 This is the drought conditions, a picture 10 taken out of the video that shows the water levels 11 here about three feet below the natural water levels. 12 This would be the natural water levels. This tree is 13 right in here. So it's about a natural water level 14 here. So you can see the difference is about three 15 feet. 16 This photo was taken in '95 of October. 17 This shows the same picture under 18 drought. 19 This shows the '95 photo where the water 20 is right to the base of the cabin and, you know, has 21 receded. And there is proof that my brother is a 22 trapper, right there, same cabin. 23 This is the little lake that you looked 24 at. It's experienced severe water loss and that's a 25 little swamp in between. There's that second lake 6486 1 again. It's all dried up. And as my brother 2 indicated, the water levels varied and fluctuated 3 throughout the years, different seasons and some of 4 the effects of that. 5 So just some of the definitions of slush 6 ice, snow ice, hanging ice that we have come up with. 7 We're not engineers, we're not hydrologists, we're 8 not lawyers, we're just trappers. So forgive us if 9 it's not 100 per cent accurate. 10 This is just an example of the Augmented 11 Flow Program that operates through the Notigi Control 12 Structure. As you could see here, the water levels 13 are substantially low. This is the actuals when it's 14 a decent year I guess in Manitoba. Everybody is out 15 golfing and that type of thing. 16 And here in October, about the middle of 17 October, from the evidence that had been provided 18 here through this process in early March, one of the 19 things that was indicated that in order to move water 20 from the Notigi Control Structure or the CRD to the 21 Lower Nelson, it takes about six weeks. So they open 22 the gate here to release water, you know, so it 23 reaches its maximum peak, maximum peak around 24 early -- late January or early February. And this 25 is -- I got this off the Hydro website, page 2 of 3. 6487 1 This is the main cabin, November 6, 2004. 2 This is 1994 where the water levels are fairly low. 3 This is looking at the Goose Falls from 4 the cabin side of the falls. So you can see the 5 rocks here. That rock is right here in this photo. 6 There's Donald again with his son. And they are 7 standing right in the middle of the falls here or 8 just about in the middle. This is the falls again, 9 my brother and his son were standing right about 10 here. This rock is now in this area here. So you 11 can see the water comes all the way back and around. 12 November 6th, you see the slush, slushing 13 of the ice and open water. Again, you know, here, 14 this is slushing right on the river, this dark area 15 that you see. This is open water. So what you can 16 see is, you know, from the time we went on the 17 chopper ride to the time these pictures were taken, 18 the water had come up quite considerably. And I 19 don't know if it snows in November -- I mean rains in 20 November, I know it snows. 21 And there's just some of the things that 22 my brother was talking about where snow machines 23 would fall through the ice and sleighs. 24 MR. MAYER: November of 2003 was one of 25 our warmest Novembers on record, right? 6488 1 MR. G. MCIVOR: This is actually 2004. 2 Sorry, Bob. 3 MR. MAYER: I'm sorry, we haven't hit 4 November 2004. 5 MR. G. MCIVOR: Oh 2003, you're right. 6 It could have been warm. 7 And this is some of the stuff that my 8 brother had indicated with the breaking tracks and 9 boogies and different things like that. 10 And this is again just another chart 11 showing some of the conditions or slushing here. You 12 know, you can see the shoreline up here so the ice 13 kind of slopes in the middle. There's a shoreline 14 here. These are along the same river. You can see 15 the water right to the shoreline. And that's this 16 stuff up here. 17 Here is the second cabin again, when 18 you're looking at it from the river. You know, 19 there's that little tree, same little tree as right 20 here. That tree right there is right there. You can 21 see the water is quite high and the cabin is way up 22 there. There's some hanging ice. This is in 23 February now where the water has been closed at 24 Notigi and it's dropped on Ferguson Creek. So you 25 can see -- this thing here is a makeshift measuring 6489 1 stick. Right here is one foot, two feet, three feet, 2 four feet, five feet. So you can see it's about four 3 and a half feet of dropping ice there, hanging ice. 4 All along the river, some hanging ice in here as well 5 and lynx tracks along here. Didn't get it, but. 6 Here is a beaver house entrance. I know 7 you've heard some evidence from CASIL yesterday on 8 that. Similar conditions on Trapline 18. This is 9 the beaver house. Due to the drop in the water 10 levels and the hanging ice, what has happened is the 11 beaver had been basically locked out of his house and 12 either in the river died somewhere or he's frozen 13 anyway somewhere. Here's the hanging ice again. 14 Same beaver house. 15 This tree here had fallen across the 16 river. It's about 140 feet long. The base of it is 17 about 28 inches in diameter. This is another tree 18 that had fallen across the waterway that these guys 19 would have to cut out and clear before they can 20 proceed. And that was in August 2001. 21 This tree here, you know, this is about 22 the size of the tree. My nephew was just looking 23 at -- this part here is where that water was at one 24 time, the level of the water was that high. This 25 tree had just fallen over into the creek. And it 6490 1 still has all the clay and soil and roots and stuff 2 like that. 3 This is just an idea, you know, of the 4 slush in the shoreline. The shorelines appear, the 5 water -- you know, the ice slopes to the centre. 6 This is just flood waters in that same creek. Once 7 again, another shot of the river banks in comparison 8 to drought and winter and flooding conditions. 9 This is another map of the area from the 10 1978 aerial map. Same thing, 1998, this is the same 11 area. 12 And as I indicated, Manitoba Hydro had 13 used this reconnaissance trip to form part of their 14 evidence for the EIS portion and indicated that based 15 on their engineer reports, hydraulic reports, that 16 there's no plausible explanation. 17 The Ferguson Creek report provided the 18 basis for this assessment was in part derived from 19 the reconnaissance trip on May 14th, which was 20 documented with georeferenced video and published in 21 MH/NCN/PIP. 22 MR. MAYER: Excuse me, this May 14, 2004 23 was a week ago. 24 MR. G. MCIVOR: 2003, I'm sorry, typo, 25 sorry. Now, this is the topographical maps, 6491 1 referenced topographical maps with watershed 2 boundaries. They also indicated there was no need to 3 obtain any additional environmental or hydrology 4 tests to confirm the evidence. 5 You know, we still maintain our position 6 that, you know, the systematic degradation of 7 Trapline 18 is not a natural occurrence and that 8 there is possible connections between the Churchill 9 River Diversion and Trapline 18. 10 Just in terms of the maps, as I indicated 11 earlier, this topographical map here, if you look at 12 the south end of Three Point Lake where the Old 13 Burntwood feeds into South Point, it shows a lot of 14 swamp area right from there right down to the south 15 end here. And on this map here, it shows a 16 difference that there's apparently an elevation 17 that's medium to high. I'm not sure what the range 18 is. I don't know how to read the topographical 19 measurements or whatever. So we'll leave it at that 20 for now. 21 This is Goose Falls, the main camp, 1994. 22 So you can see the water just peaking through the 23 falls. You could see this is the rapids that you 24 looked at prior to getting to the Goose Falls which 25 is just behind this tree here. So you can see the 6492 1 rocks extend right across here. This is the same 2 location, the same tree right here and the water 3 right across. So you know, the water levels do 4 fluctuate quite considerably. To get into this level 5 from here to here, it's probably about six feet. 6 This is Goose Falls. The rapids that you 7 looked at earlier just behind that is the Goose Falls 8 with flooding. So you can see where it was peaking 9 through, it would have been about here. Now it's 10 just, you know, even got some mist. See princesses 11 in the mist. 12 Here is our cabin. You know, same 13 picture, different angle. So you can see all the 14 water that comes down that area. Again, just to give 15 you an idea that, you know, these are just some of 16 the experiences that we've had with different water 17 level fluctuations over the last 28 years since the 18 CRD. 19 So this, you know, just a slide of the 20 flooding right to the shorelines that you've seen on 21 the video, this is the same creek that you had looked 22 at. 23 That's Ferguson Creek again, just showing 24 the flooding. This is an example of one of the 25 trees. This tree was about 22 inches in diameter at 6493 1 this point here and they had cut off quite an 2 extensive amount of it to get it out of the river. 3 And I don't know if anybody logged in their life but 4 those are pretty big trees. 5 This is that marsh and bog area that you 6 see along the Ferguson Creek, the flooding right to 7 and over the banks or into the bush or to the tree 8 lines that are here. 9 This is my nephew, Donald's son Andy 10 McIvor. He's completed his Natural Resource Studies 11 at the Keewatin Community College as a result of I 12 think a lot of the experience that he had gained by 13 trapping with his father. And this is just a friend 14 of my brother's that accompanied him quite a few 15 times on the trapline. 16 This is the rapids again, Ferguson Falls 17 Rapids. Same tree, just a little bigger picture for 18 you to look at. You can see the water had come down 19 here. It shows elevations of the flooding water. 20 Same thing at the Goose Rapids there. 21 Ferguson Creek, Goose Falls, Ferguson Creek. You can 22 see here the discolouration. The water dropped two 23 or three feet there. This here is all the marsh and 24 the swamp. And there he is again, the mad trapper. 25 There's his cabin, a little bit lower water. So you 6494 1 can see the -- you know, it does increase, the water 2 does increase. 3 This here used to be Wellington Beebe's 4 trapline on the Grass River system. This is on 5 Trapline number 3. 6 MR. MAYER: Can you explain where that 7 is, please? 8 MR. G. MCIVOR: When you come down the 9 Grass River from Herblet Lake, or Herb Lake, put it 10 that way, you'd pass this point which is a trapline 11 on Trapline number 3 in the Wabowden Resource area. 12 MR. MAYER: Is that on Metishtu (ph) 13 Lake? 14 MR. G. MCIVOR: No, it's further north of 15 Metishtu. It's on Pakwa Lake. So that's 16 Wellington's. This again shows you the swamp. You 17 can see the water in here right to the tree line. 18 There is another Dale Hutchison beaver dam with a 19 tree across the river. This is a tree across the 20 river, it's not a beaver dam. Sorry, Dale, I didn't 21 mean to pick on you. 22 This is just a shoreline again. You can 23 see the water levels are a little bit higher and it's 24 right to the tree line there in the back. Same 25 thing. Just show you the -- you can see this thing 6495 1 here, this usually sticks out four to five feet and 2 you can just see the top of it here. 3 There's another tree. So these are 4 just -- this is that rapids, Goose Falls again. You 5 can just drive right there through there without 6 worrying about hitting the rocks. And we're just 7 suggesting that in addition to the effects on 8 Trapline 18, there's other impacts such as hunting in 9 that Setting Lake, Wabowden resource area on the west 10 side of number 6 that would include Pakwa and 11 Metishtu and Five Mile and August Lake area as well 12 as the Ferguson Creek. Fishing in the area as well, 13 canoeing down the Grass River and related areas of 14 canoe routes. Camping along not only the lakes but 15 at Setting Lake Campground and Sasigui Rapids 16 Campground. 17 Additional potential impacts are on 18 tourism. You've seen the water levels at Setting 19 Lake. You have seen, you know, the area in the top 20 line. Recreational use for loading, canoeing, 21 swimming, water-skiing, camping, whatever, fishing, 22 you know, same thing, outings and picnics. A lot of 23 people used to go berry picking across the lake in 24 different areas, their secret hiding spots. Cottage 25 development, you know, at Setting Lake and other lake 6496 1 locations along that system, and environmental 2 impacts shoreline erosion. 3 MR. MAYER: Just a sec. What are you 4 suggesting is doing this? 5 MR. G. MCIVOR: All I'm saying is from 6 the -- 7 MR. MAYER: I was listening to you when 8 you told me about Ferguson Creek but now you've 9 showed me Pakwa Lake and now you're talking about the 10 Grass River system. And I'm sorry, Mr. McIvor, I 11 have a lot of trouble believing that the Grass River 12 system is connected to the Burntwood River system 13 anywhere north -- or sorry, anywhere south or 14 upstream of the bottom end of Kettle Generating 15 Stations or Kelsey Generating Stations. 16 MR. G. MCIVOR: I think the Burntwood 17 River system does not connect with the Grass River 18 system, only at Kelsey. Grass flows into the 19 Burntwood. 20 MR. MAYER: Into Split Lake. 21 MR. G. MCIVOR: This water coming over 22 Goose Falls travels down the Ferguson, joins the 23 Grassy River at Trapline number 3 just a couple of 24 kilometres north of that cabin that I showed you, 25 and then flows into Setting Lake. 6497 1 MR. MAYER: Which is very dry right now. 2 MR. G. MCIVOR: Which is I imagine. And 3 that's to conclude our video presentation. And I 4 just want to let you guys know that if we have some 5 difficulty answering any of your questions, it's 6 because we are not hydrologists, we are not 7 environmentalists, we are not counsel, legal counsel 8 or anything else for anybody else. We're just a 9 family that trapped on Trapline 18 since 1970 and 10 what we're giving you is our experience with some 11 visual aids. With that, thank you. 12 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. Grewar. 14 MR. GREWAR: Just in terms of exhibit 15 numbers, I am assuming that we would want the video 16 entered as an exhibit in which case I have a copy of 17 the video as T18-1000. 18 19 (EXHIBIT T18-1000: Video Presentation: 20 "Ferguson Creek Hydrological 21 Investigation") 22 23 MR. GREWAR: The next would be the Clean 24 Environment Commission Wuskwatim Generation Project 25 and Wuskwatim Transmission Line Project, presentation 6498 1 by Greg McIvor and Donald McIvor Trapline 18, 2 Additional Reference Materials is how it's titled. 3 And that would be T18-1001. 4 5 (EXHIBIT T18-1001: Clean Environment 6 Commission Wuskwatim Generation Project 7 and Wuskwatim Transmission Line Project. 8 Presentation by Greg and Donald McIvor, 9 Trap Line 18 and Trap line Area 430. 10 Additional Reference Materials) 11 12 MR. GREWAR: And finally the slide 13 presentation we've just seen would be T18-1002. 14 15 (EXHIBIT T18-1002: Presentation Slides: 16 Clean Environment Commission Wuskwatim 17 Generation and Transmission Projects, May 18 26, 2004. Presentation by Greg McIvor and 19 Donald McIvor, Trap Line 18 and Wobowden 20 Registered Trap Line Area 430) 21 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Questions? 23 Mr. Sargeant. 24 MR. SARGEANT: Mr. McIvor, the difficulty 25 that I am having, I mean I watched both your video 6499 1 and your Power Point presentation. I am not 2 questioning that you do have problems with an 3 abundance of water at times. But I mean I am not a 4 geographer or a geologist or a hydrologist either but 5 I do have some sense of rises of land and I just 6 don't see how water gets from the CRD system into 7 your area. I mean it would have to go uphill. And 8 you know, I'm just a poor dumb lawyer and I don't 9 understand how water goes uphill. 10 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, we're just poor 11 dumb trappers, too. But you know what, every year 12 when they operate the CRD, you know, the water levels 13 increase based on the operation of that. And the 14 only thing that we can suggest, you know, to assist 15 you with that is that, you know, as a result of the 16 swamp that comes from the south end of Three Point 17 Lake and is evident in that area between Three Point 18 and along the Burntwood and Wuskwatim is that, you 19 know, you heard information yesterday from CASIL. 20 When you lower South Indian Lake, even at two feet, 21 and then you have got to squeeze all that water 22 through Notigi control structure, the amount of water 23 that has to fit through there is coming at 30,000 24 cubic feet per second I understand. So you know, it 25 pushes all the way through those little rivers, 6500 1 erodes the shorelines all the way down into the 2 Footprint Lake, into Three Point. And if you look at 3 Three Point Lake, it's right directly in front of 4 that force of water coming down. 5 So if you have a swamp that is there with 6 no buffers such as bedrock or anything else or some 7 solids to wash up against, what will happen, I think, 8 I would suggest, is that water would push its way 9 through that swamp and would continue under the bog 10 to wherever it has to go. 11 But I'm sure everybody knows that, you 12 know, if you control water enough, that you can cut 13 two or three inches of steel with water. 14 MR. SARGEANT: But isn't there a fairly 15 significant difference in elevation between the head 16 waters, the swamp that form the head waters of 17 Ferguson Creek and Three Point Lake, Burntwood River? 18 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, that's what I mean. 19 You know, if you look at the elevations and you look 20 at the terrain, I mean what you're looking at is 21 outcrops of rock. Around those rocks is swamp and 22 bog and fen and overgrowth where water could easily 23 soak through there or run through there underneath of 24 it. And it will -- like water is just like anything 25 else, it will just find its way through. 6501 1 And I think in the video, you know, where 2 our trapline ended and, you know, you could see for 3 kilometres, a swath of land cut along the waterway 4 that goes into that same area of bog and swamp and 5 also the NCN Resource Management area. 6 So like I said, you know, we've never 7 flown over that area because I mean we're up there in 8 snow machines and boats and at various times of the 9 year and, you know, we've always been told that, you 10 know, it's not affected. But I mean look at what's 11 happening. 12 MR. SARGEANT: Another point, your 13 brother in his comments said that he had met elders. 14 I believe it was he who had met elders that spoke of 15 waterways that connected Three Point Lake, Burntwood 16 River with the Ferguson Creek area? 17 MR. G. MCIVOR: Um-hum. 18 MR. SARGEANT: I mean have you or your 19 brother or other members of your family found these 20 same waterways or have map makers or others found 21 these waterways? 22 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, I think what my 23 brother mentioned was, I am not sure if he said 24 connected, but you know, people do travel from the 25 Wuskwatim or Nelson House area to Setting Lake and 6502 1 use those waterways to access those points. 2 MR. MAYER: Mr. McIvor, I'm trusting it 3 was in jest but you said I could access Ferguson 4 Creek by canoe from Three Point Lake from Nelson 5 House? 6 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well you can. Now you 7 can. 8 MR. MAYER: I can paddle it? 9 MR. G. MCIVOR: You can do that now. You 10 have my permission. 11 MR. MAYER: Well, why wouldn't you show 12 us that route? Because if that is in fact the case, 13 that's proof positive. 14 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well you know what, I 15 will tell you what. As a result of -- 16 MR. MAYER: Would I be going downstream 17 all the way? 18 MR. G. MCIVOR: You're going downstream 19 from Three Point to Trapline 18 I would imagine. 20 MR. MAYER: If you could show that, you 21 wouldn't have any difficulty. 22 MR. G. MCIVOR: I think we just tried to 23 show you that. You know what, Mr. Mayer, I think 24 what you have to appreciate is that Manitoba Hydro 25 chartered a helicopter. Manitoba Hydro provided the 6503 1 video material. 2 MR. MAYER: Mr. McIvor. 3 MR. G. MCIVOR: Georeference material. 4 MR. MAYER: You do not need a helicopter 5 if what you say is true. You put a canoe in at 6 Nelson House, you go down to Three Point Lake, you go 7 to where you say the creek that joins to Ferguson is 8 and you paddle down it. You do not need a helicopter 9 to do that. 10 MR. G. MCIVOR: We just showed you that. 11 MR. MAYER: Have you done that, sir? 12 MR. G. MCIVOR: We just showed you that. 13 MR. SARGEANT: Have you done it? 14 MR. G. MCIVOR: We haven't done it. 15 That's Nelson House's territory. We don't go there. 16 MR. SARGEANT: You're a member of Nelson 17 House Band, aren't you? 18 MR. G. MCIVOR: No, I'm not. 19 MR. SARGEANT: I'm sorry, I thought you 20 were. 21 MR. G. MCIVOR: No. We don't go into 22 Nelson House territory to go on their traplines. 23 It's tough enough going up on the trapline never mind 24 going an extra 30 kilometres or 23 kilometres to 25 Nelson House. For what? 6504 1 MR. SARGEANT: Are you saying anybody 2 would have taken a boat or a canoe from Nelson House 3 to the Trapline 18 area? 4 MR. G. MCIVOR: No, not recently. You 5 know, I mean I'm just -- from the elders, they have 6 indicated that they've been able to get to the Nelson 7 House area with a portage. I would suggest that in 8 The Pas, on March 25th, that, you know, Mr. Yetman's 9 comments to a question that Mr. Mayer had asked, he 10 indicated that there was about eight or nine 11 traplines on that south end which is the same area, 12 the 64 and 47, those traplines in that area. Very 13 unproductive over the last several years. 14 MR. SARGEANT: I want to just repeat what 15 Mr. Mayer suggested. If indeed you can travel by 16 boat from Nelson House to Trapline 18, then you've 17 got a pretty simple solution for the argument that 18 you've been posing for many years. That gives you 19 proof that your argument is correct. But to date, we 20 haven't seen this proof. And if you want us to 21 comment favourably on it, we need some kind of proof. 22 MR. MAYER: And by the way, Mr. McIvor, 23 although you may cross through the Nelson House 24 resource area, if you wish to access Three Point Lake 25 without going through Nelson House, you can in fact 6505 1 enter the Burntwood River from a logging road just 2 outside of Sherridon. You can paddle down it. I 3 understand it takes about four days and you'll be in 4 Three Point Lake and readily able to access where you 5 tell us you can get in through to Ferguson Creek. 6 So I'm assuming, before this dam is ever 7 constructed, you'll have done that and we'll have 8 proof positive that you have a claim for CRD. 9 But you're not suggesting, are you, in 10 any of this presentation, since Wuskwatim isn't yet 11 built, that your claim would have anything to do with 12 the construction of Wuskwatim Generation, right? 13 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, Mr. Mayer, if you 14 look at the effects that are currently on Trapline 15 18, on the basis of the Augmented Flow Program that 16 currently exists, then you construct Wuskwatim. You 17 maintain the same program that you are currently 18 operating now plus continue with the Augmented Flow 19 Program after that. What you're going to do is 20 you're going to be adding more water to that system 21 and I would suggest you're going to have more impacts 22 on Trapline 18. 23 MR. MAYER: But, Mr. McIvor, you're 24 telling me it's coming out of Three Point Lake which 25 is well above what even South Indian Lake accepts is 6506 1 the effects of Wuskwatim in that there will be no 2 hydraulic effects of construction of Wuskwatim 3 Generation above Early Morning Rapids. Your route is 4 well above Early Morning Rapids. In fact, it's well 5 above several sets of other rapids; isn't that 6 correct? 7 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, you know what, Mr. 8 Mayer, what I can -- 9 MR. MAYER: I mean is it correct? Am I 10 correct? 11 MR. G. MCIVOR: Like I said, I am not a 12 hydrologist. I'm not a geophysicist or a geographer. 13 MR. MAYER: You can read a map, sir. 14 MR. G. MCIVOR: Not very good. I'm 15 not -- I mean I can tell you that the topographical 16 map that was provided by the National Mapping Branch 17 shows that area that we're talking about is all 18 swamp. 19 MR. MAYER: The topographical map also 20 shows several sets of rapids between Wuskwatim Lake 21 and Three Point Lake, right? 22 MR. G. MCIVOR: It shows a lot of swamp, 23 too. But you know, in response to your question. We 24 made an application for participation assistance 25 which I understand it was reviewed by Mr. Strachan. 6507 1 In his comments, he says request from Trapline 18 for 2 $60,000. Direct effects from generation project is 3 unlikely. Transmission line may have effects. Need 4 for professional hydrologist for $20,000 is 5 inappropriate. So if I was able to answer your 6 questions, they would have provided resources for a 7 hydrologist. 8 Project management, $10,000. Not 9 appropriate. I mean this is 10 months already. 10 Travel, presentation support, administration support 11 costs, $20,000 was excessive. Recommended funding 12 was $20,000. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. McIvor, on a normal or 14 average year, when is the water high along the 15 trapline? 16 MR. G. MCIVOR: Like we said, we could 17 base it on the Augmented Flow Program. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: When I asked. 19 MR. G. MCIVOR: When last? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll ask your brother. 21 When is the water level high on the trapline along 22 the creeks you were showing? 23 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, I think it's -- 24 THE CHAIRMAN: What time of the year? I 25 am asking him. 6508 1 MR. D. MCIVOR: That depends on what 2 year. That depends on what year. Sometimes it will 3 be spring, during the summer, during the fall. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: But I'm asking in a normal 5 or average year. On the average, when is the water 6 high? 7 MR. D. MCIVOR: Mostly in the fall. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mostly in the fall? 9 MR. D. MCIVOR: Yeah. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: And when is the water low? 11 MR. D. MCIVOR: During the summer, 12 spring, summer and be high in the fall. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: The water is high in the 14 fall, not in winter? 15 MR. D. MCIVOR: No. It starts dropping. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: And it's not high in the 17 spring? 18 MR. D. MCIVOR: Sometimes, not every 19 year. 20 MR. G. MCIVOR: Like I said, it's based 21 on the operations of the Churchill River Diversion. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: But the point is that the 23 operation of the Churchill River doesn't change every 24 year in time line. That's why I'm asking the 25 question. 6509 1 MR. G. MCIVOR: But you know what, my 2 understanding is that the interim licences for the 3 Churchill River Diversion haven't been maintained 4 either. So how do you know it doesn't change from 5 year to year? We don't know. Nobody consults with 6 us. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: It's for a defined period 8 of the year. 9 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, sure it is. But it 10 changes from what I understand. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. That's not what I 12 understand. Other questions? 13 MR. ABRA: Mr. Chairman. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Abra. 15 MR. ABRA: Thank you. Mr. McIvor, could 16 you look at the last page, please, of Exhibit 1001 17 which you put in today which is entitled Clean 18 Environment Commission Wuskwatim Generation Project 19 and Wuskwatim Transmission Line Project Presentation 20 by Greg McIvor? 21 MR. G. MCIVOR: Okay. 22 MR. ABRA: The last page which is the 23 chart. 24 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yes. 25 MR. ABRA: You put this in as part of 6510 1 your evidence. 2 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yes. 3 MR. ABRA: Did you get this from Manitoba 4 Hydro? 5 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yes. 6 MR. ABRA: Just to follow up on what Mr. 7 Sargeant was asking you, sir. If you take a look at 8 the chart, it shows start of Ferguson Creek and it 9 shows it being approximately 265 metres above sea 10 level. 11 MR. G. MCIVOR: Sure. 12 MR. ABRA: Wuskwatim Lake is shown at 13 approximately 235 metres above sea level. 14 MR. G. MCIVOR: I can't challenge that 15 information. 16 MR. ABRA: Now, the water flows out of 17 Wuskwatim Lake to the north and Ferguson Creek runs 18 south; am I correct? 19 MR. G. MCIVOR: No. Ferguson Creek runs 20 from the southwest to north to Setting Lake or 21 northeast to Setting Lake and then into the Hudson 22 Bay. 23 MR. ABRA: Well, it shows start of 24 Ferguson Creek on this diagram and you show the 25 trapper's cabin. Is the trapper's cabin not on 6511 1 Ferguson Creek? 2 MR. G. MCIVOR: There's two of them 3 there. 4 MR. ABRA: The one that's shown. Get the 5 diagram, please. 6 MR. G. MCIVOR: I've seen the diagram, 7 sir. 8 MR. ABRA: The one that's shown at 240 9 metres above sea level, is that on Ferguson Creek? 10 MR. G. MCIVOR: You know what, Mr. Abra, 11 I don't question the numbers on that because that was 12 produced by Manitoba Hydro but I would suggest that 13 the video that you just reviewed, all the panoramic 14 shots, if you look at that chart, I mean what it's 15 saying is that Ferguson Creek is like that. The 16 elevations on that rise somewhere around 30 metres, 17 so there's a mountain there somewhere. But in that 18 video you didn't see any mountains. I didn't anyway. 19 MR. ABRA: Sir, you put this in as part 20 of your evidence, this chart? 21 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yeah. 22 MR. ABRA: This chart shows a difference 23 of 30 metres between Wuskwatim Lake and the start of 24 Ferguson Creek? 25 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yeah, that chart was 6512 1 provided by Manitoba Hydro for the EIS. 2 MR. ABRA: You tendered it as part of 3 your evidence, sir. 4 MR. G. MCIVOR: I used that as an example 5 to reference the video to show that from the 6 panoramic shots and along the flight line, that there 7 are no mountains as that chart would indicate. 8 MR. ABRA: Well, they are not mountains. 9 I mean 30 metres isn't a mountain. Would you not 10 agree that 30 metres has to at least be some height 11 of land that exists between Wuskwatim Lake and 12 Ferguson Creek? 13 MR. G. MCIVOR: Sure. And I would 14 suggest, too, that Manitoba Hydro knows that the 15 terrain in that area would, you know, not allow them 16 to go in a straight line because all the swamp and 17 the bog and the cost of, you know, putting in the 18 footings for those towers. What they have to do is 19 they have to hop from outcrop of bedrock to outcrops 20 all the way through to get to Herblet Lake. 21 MR. ABRA: Now, this document says, 22 "If anything, the water in Ferguson 23 Creek watershed would be flowing 24 towards Wuskwatim Lake not the other 25 way around. There is thus no 6513 1 plausible explanation for the CRD 2 water to enter into Ferguson Creek 3 watershed." 4 Now, that's in the document that you've 5 put into evidence. But as you say, you received it 6 from Manitoba Hydro. 7 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yeah. 8 MR. ABRA: But do you have any evidence 9 to refute that statement? 10 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yes. We just showed you 11 the video, sir, and that's basically what we have is, 12 you know, all the tracks of land that were cut along 13 the creekways, the waterways, right into the Nelson 14 House Resource Management area which I would suggest 15 go right back through the swamp right up to the Three 16 Point and the Burntwood River. 17 MR. ABRA: So do I understand you to be 18 saying that you are relying on whatever it is that 19 the panel can see from the video to somehow show that 20 the water gets from Wuskwatim Lake into Ferguson 21 Creek? 22 MR. G. MCIVOR: I would suggest, Mr. 23 Abra, we could have provided you all those answers 24 had we been given the adequate financial resources to 25 do that. 6514 1 MR. MAYER: You could have paddled 2 (inaudible). 3 MR. G. MCIVOR: Well, you could have done 4 it too, Bob. 5 MR. MAYER: I quite frankly don't think 6 it's there. 7 MR. G. MCIVOR: I just showed you it. 8 MR. MAYER: No, you did not. And if you 9 did, put it in. 10 MR. G. MCIVOR: And I think that's our 11 point of this presentation is that, you know, based 12 on your unobjective analysis of this trapline, that a 13 further study has to be taken. I mean you have to 14 undertake further environmental hydrology tests to 15 show that -- you know, to get answers to your 16 questions, Mr. Abra, and I would suggest to Mr. Mayer 17 and Mr. Lecuyer as well. I mean that's all we're 18 saying is that look, we've experienced this for 28 19 years. You know, we've been told that there's no 20 impacts. But, that's our experience. 21 I mean how do we answer that? I mean 22 we're trying to get information to the public, to the 23 Commission, to the government and also to the people 24 that are accountable for, you know, what has happened 25 on Trapline 18. And we can't fight the resources 6515 1 that they have. We don't have the resources. Even 2 when we asked for some, we didn't get any. 3 MR. ABRA: That's fine, thank you. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? Ms. 5 Valerie Matthews Lemieux. 6 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Mr. McIvor, just 7 to go over this particular issue where actually we've 8 got the benefit of having both Wellington Spence, 9 who's referred to in Mr. Donald McIvor's statement, 10 and also Jimmy D. Spence with us who have heard the 11 testimony this morning. And both -- I am advised 12 that both of these elders have travelled that area. 13 And what they advise is that you would go through 14 from the Burntwood River to, and I am not going to 15 probably say this correctly, but Wemapathe Creek. 16 And there's no way by water to get from Wemapathe 17 Creek to Ferguson Creek, that they do not connect. 18 Now you disagree with that? They say you can 19 portage? 20 MR. G. MCIVOR: One of the things that we 21 have identified through this process, Ms. Lemieux, is 22 if you look at the video footage and some of the 23 photographs that we've shown, there's a creek that my 24 brother calls Jimmy Flett Creek. And the reason he 25 calls it that is Jimmy Flett had trapped with my 6516 1 brother back in the seventies and showed him all 2 those waterways in and behind the, you know, the west 3 end of the trapline and how you can get to Nelson 4 House and how you can go and harvest goose eggs in 5 that swamp and bog and also where the caribou were 6 calving and that type of stuff. 7 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Mr. McIvor, 8 you know Wellington Spence, right? 9 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yes, I do. 10 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And you also know 11 Jimmy D. Spence, right? 12 MR. G. MCIVOR: Yes, I do. 13 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And you know that