6660 1 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION 2 3 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 4 Volume 28 5 6 Including List of Participants 7 8 9 10 Hearing 11 12 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 13 14 Presiding: 15 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair 16 Kathi Kinew 17 Harvey Nepinak 18 Robert Mayer 19 Terry Sargeant 20 21 Thursday, May 27, 2004 22 Sheraton Hotel 23 161 Donald Street 24 Winnipeg, Manitoba 25 6661 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Clean Environment Commission: 4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman 5 Terry Sargeant Member 6 Harvey Nepinak Member 7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member 8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission 9 Rory Grewar Staff 10 CEC Advisors: 11 Mel Falk 12 Dave Farlinger 13 Jack Scriven 14 Jim Sandison 15 Jean McClellan 16 Brent McLean 17 Kyla Gibson 18 19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation: 20 Chief Jerry Primrose 21 Elvis Thomas 22 Campbell MacInnes 23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux 24 25 6662 1 2 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 3 4 Manitoba Conservation: 5 Larry Strachan 6 Trent Hreno 7 8 Manitoba Hydro/NCN: 9 Doug Bedford, Counsel 10 Bob Adkins, Counsel 11 Marvin Shaffer 12 Ed Wojczynski 13 Ken Adams 14 Carolyn Wray 15 Ron Mazur 16 Lloyd Kuczek 17 Cam Osler 18 Stuart Davies 19 David Hicks 20 George Rempel 21 David Cormie 22 Alex Fleming 23 Marvin Shaffer 24 Blair McMahon 25 6663 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 MOSAKAHIKEN CREE NATION 4 Jerry Ron Campbell 5 6 FOX LAKE CREE NATION 7 Chief Robert Wavey 8 Elizabeth Beardy 9 Samson Dick 10 Zack Mayham 11 Mike Lawrenchuk 12 13 MANITOBA BUILDING AND CONSTRUCTION TRADES COUNCIL 14 David Martin 15 16 MANITOBA KEEWATINOOK ININEW OKIMOWIN 17 Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch 18 Mike Anderson 19 20 PUKATAWAGAN FISHERMEN'S ASSOCIATION 21 Peter sinclair 22 23 O-PIPON-NA-PIWIN CREE NATION 24 Headman 25 Chris Baker 6664 1 2 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 3 4 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE 5 6 MCN-1000: Presentation by 7 Mosakahiken Cree Nation, Review of 8 Wuskwatim Transmission Environmental 9 Impact Statement, Submission to the Clean 10 Environment Commission, May 27, 2004 6682 11 12 OTH-1032: Presentation to 13 Manitoba Clean Environment Commission by 14 Chief Robert Wavey, Fox Lake Cree Nation, 15 May 27, 2004 6719 16 17 OTH-1033: CD of Fox Lake 18 overhead projections 6719 19 20 OTH-1034: Presentation by David 21 Martin, Executive Director, Manitoba 22 Building and Construction Trades Council, 23 May 27, 2004 6729 24 25 6665 1 2 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 3 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE 4 5 MH/NCN-1044: Response to the 6 CASIL's question by Mr. Cormie 6794 7 8 MH/NCN-1045: Correspondence 9 on the Augmented Flow Program 6795 10 11 OTH-1035: Presentation submitted by MKO, 12 Dr. Sydney Garrioch, May 27, 2004 6807 13 14 OTH-1O36: Presentation by 15 Peter Sinclair on behalf of the 16 Pukatawagan Fishermen's 17 Association 6825 18 19 OPCN-1001: Presentation of 20 Headman Chris Baker on behalf of 21 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation 6882 22 23 OPCN-1002: Maps presented by 24 Headman Chris Baker on behalf of 25 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation 6882 6666 1 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS 2 3 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE 4 5 MCN-91: Provide map showing FMU 53 and 6 Resource Management Area 6686 7 OTH-92: Produce copy of Fox Lake 8 overhead projections on CD 6719 9 OTH-93: Provide copy of full Northern 10 Residents Employment Committee Annual Report 1991 6739 11 OTH-94: Provide a listing of who 12 belongs to the Trades and Construction Council or the 13 Allied Hydro Council 6739 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6667 1 THURSDAY, MAY 27, 2004 2 Upon commencing at 9:09 a.m. 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning. I 5 welcome you on this beautiful sunny morning. 6 Presumably you've seen that unless you were still 7 sleeping while walking over here. We are ready to 8 begin this morning with the first presentation from 9 the Mosakahiken Cree Nation, MCN. I presume that 10 these people presenting are here. If they are, would 11 you come forward. 12 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Jerry Ron Campbell. 13 Sir, I'm going to ask you to state your name for the 14 record. 15 MR. CAMPBELL: Jerry Campbell, Jerry Ron 16 Campbell. 17 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Campbell, are you aware 18 that in Manitoba, it is an offence to knowingly 19 mislead this Commission? 20 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. 21 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell just 22 the truth in proceedings before this Commission? 23 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I do. 24 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 25 6668 1 (JERRY RON CAMPBELL: SWORN) 2 3 MR. CAMPBELL: Good morning, everybody. 4 5 (CREE SPOKEN) 6 7 I just told the people whoever 8 understands Cree that the whole reason why I'm here, 9 and my name is Jerry Campbell and I look after -- I'm 10 a Band Councillor back home there in Moose Lake and I 11 look after the resources. It's sort of hard but I am 12 learning my way. I've been there for six years now. 13 I'm just slowly learning everything. 14 So I'll do -- doing a submission to the 15 Clean Environment Commission. 16 Introduction. There's a hand-out that I 17 gave out. I hope every one of you has it. Okay. To 18 make note, there's a map on the fifth page, there's a 19 map there, and I made a little bit of notes there. I 20 think it says "50 acres Land selected." So just try 21 and follow along and bear with me. 22 The Mosakahiken Cree Nation is very close 23 to finalizing the Comprehensive Forebay Agreement 24 which settles outstanding matters with Manitoba Hydro 25 and Manitoba related to the adverse effects of Grand 6669 1 Rapids Project, including flooding of Cedar Lake and 2 Moose Lakes and taking of reserve lands. Two 3 important provisions in the CFA, the establishment of 4 Moose Lake Resource Management Area. I just made a 5 note of that, like RMA, and related joint land and 6 resource use planning and allocation of softwood 7 timber harvesting rights in Forest Management Unit 8 53. The RMA will be established jointly by Manitoba 9 and Mosakahiken Cree Nation with each maintaining 10 equal representation upon approval through a 11 community referendum to be held later in 2004. 12 I'll sort of talk in my own language, 13 whoever listens sort of understands. 14 15 (CREE SPOKEN) 16 17 We call it Manitoba. The mandate of the 18 Board is to participate in the conservation, 19 management and protection of the lands in the RMA. 20 That's Resource Management Area. The main functions 21 are to assess and monitor environmental components 22 such as aquatic and terrestrial biota as well as 23 recommending land use and resource management plans 24 and resource allocations. Included with these 25 functions is the conservation and management of 6670 1 forestry in FMU 53 for economic benefits to 2 Mosakahiken Cree Nation. 3 The Mosakahiken Cree Nation sought 4 funding to participate in Manitoba Clean Environment 5 Commission Hearings as intervenors to assess if the 6 Wuskwatim Transmission Environmental Impact Statement 7 describes and addresses potential impacts on the RMA 8 and FMU 53. Emphasis of the assessment was on the 9 proposed transmission line routing from Herblet Lake 10 Station to Ralls Island Station near The Pas. 11 Environmental impacts on forestry operations, 12 traditional land us and resources because of possible 13 corridor clearing within or near FMU 53 and the RMA, 14 were reviewed as part of the assessment. Other 15 impacts such as increased traffic in the RMA and as 16 well as consultative process with potentially 17 affected Aboriginal populations were reviewed to 18 assess and make the CEC aware that other issues may 19 potentially exist that are not fully addressed in the 20 EIS. 21 22 (CREE SPOKEN) 23 24 Okay. I'm on number 2. Maps showing 25 both the proposed and alternate route between Herblet 6671 1 Lake Station and Rall's Island Station show that 2 either route will be within a few kilometres of the 3 FMU 53 along the northwest corner. Okay, there's a 4 map there. It's by Herblet Lake, there's -- 5 6 (CREE SPOKEN) 7 8 As well, either route would be located to 9 the west of Mawdesley Lake which is also a few 10 kilometres west of the RMA. Finally, either route 11 would be very close to one of our proposed CFA land 12 selections, just south of Cedar Lake -- okay, 13 Clearwater Lake, at the junction of Provincial Roads 14 384 and 287. 15 16 (CREE SPOKEN) 17 18 The road that's leading to Moose Lake and 19 Clearwater Lake. You see the provincial lake and the 20 Clearwater Lake and provincial park, there's that 21 railroad track by map 1. And right on the corner, 22 that's where we selected 50 acres of land to be used 23 for future economic use for our Band members in Moose 24 Lake. 25 The EIS mentions that the proposed 6672 1 transmission line runs through the traditional 2 territory. It appears that the authors are confused, 3 okay, they are confused as to the definition of 4 traditional territory versus resource management 5 areas. The Mosakahiken Cree Nation maintains that 6 much of this same area also belongs to them as 7 traditional territory. 8 Me and my friend here along the way 9 coming from Moose Lake there on the highway, we 10 talked about relationships. We talked about cousins, 11 we talked about grandfathers and let's see how long 12 we can remember -- let's see how long we can remember 13 of who we are related to, see if we're first cousins. 14 But we're first cousins anyway. And we only went to 15 second to third generation. 16 17 (CREE SPOKEN) 18 19 Number 3, observation on the EIS and 20 discussions regarding Aboriginal and Mosakahiken Cree 21 Nation interests. Although the transmission line 22 will not directly cross either the RMA or FMU 53, 23 there may be effects on Mosakahiken Cree interests to 24 its traditional territory, RMA or FMU 53. As such, 25 the review of the EIS, in particular the transmission 6673 1 line, focused on Mosakahiken's interests including 2 economic and traditional pursuits and 3 resources/environmental management, which are 4 inevitably linked. 5 6 (CREE SPOKEN) 7 8 The following are observations and 9 comments on the review on the EIS. 10 3.1, Traditional pursuits it says here. 11 Negative impacts cannot be quantified without giving 12 due regard to changes as a result of new development 13 through the trapline areas and terrestrial and 14 aquatic habitat, adjacent to the right-of-way, ROW. 15 I just put a slash on them. It is stated in the EIS 16 that "most effects are to be either minimal or 17 negligible." Further, the EIS predicts that the 18 transmission lines would not have lasting effects on 19 areas hunting, trapping and fishing. 20 21 (CREE SPOKEN) 22 23 These predictions do not take into 24 account habitats that span a greater area than the 25 transmission line ROW, right-of-way, which may affect 6674 1 adjacent areas of hunting, trapping and fishing, 2 hence, directly impacting Mosakahiken members' 3 traditional pursuits. The potential for habitat 4 fragmentation may impact movement of terrestrial 5 animal populations through the displacement or 6 avoidance of certain critical locations adjacent to 7 the right-of-way. 8 By far, the largest potential for 9 population displacement may result from increased 10 access which is minimally addressed in the EIS 11 through broad statements such as access management. 12 As well, access management measures should include 13 consultation with the proposed Moose Lake Resource 14 Management, RMB, since most ranges and habitats in 15 the area extend into the RMA. 16 Okay, 3.1.1. The Transmission 17 Development Fund is proposed to provide long-term 18 community benefits to Aboriginal communities whose 19 traditional uses may be traversed by the development 20 of the Wuskwatim Transmission Project. The fund only 21 proposes to provide funding to communities whose 22 members are directly affected by the transmission 23 line construction and corridor. Again, the EIS 24 assumes, the EIS assumes that all direct impacts may 25 occur within the corridor, and not in adjacent areas 6675 1 where individuals may be affected from time to time. 2 In addition, the fund appears to be provided to 3 Aboriginal communities but does not provide even a 4 semblance of how the mechanism of compensation 5 distribution would be applied to individuals. 6 Further, long-term benefits should also include loss 7 of income or access to resources on an annual basis, 8 especially since the transmission corridor will 9 always be in place, hence altering the landscape 10 forever regardless of potential mitigation measures 11 to be implemented. 12 13 (CREE SPOKEN) 14 15 I'm just trying to be myself here as I'm 16 up here. I'm not very good at making speeches, hey. 17 So once in a while, I'm going to be talking in my own 18 language, as you know, just to make myself 19 comfortable. 20 21 (CREE SPOKEN) 22 23 When discussing Mosakahiken interests, 24 one must also speak of the spiritual link, spiritual 25 link between the landscape and resources. These 6676 1 words here, which is coming back a little bit 2 previous meetings that we had back home, resource 3 meetings, I have four or five elders back home and 4 they give me a lot of knowledge. They give a lot of 5 words in my own language, talking about spiritual 6 links. 7 8 (CREE SPOKEN) 9 10 One very important component is the 11 visual references of landscapes. The RMA is bound on 12 the east side of Bipoles I and II. If construction 13 of the Wuskwatim transmission line corridor occurs, 14 it will effectively give the perception of isolation 15 to the people of Moose Lake by being bound on both 16 sides of the RMA by the transmission line. 17 The EIS makes no mention of visual 18 impacts on the landscape, okay. It makes no mention 19 of the visual impact on the landscape from 20 construction of the transmission line. The EIS makes 21 reference to the fact that many areas of the 22 transmission line corridor will be in isolated areas. 23 If meaningful consultation was undertaken with local 24 First Nations, these impacts would have been readily 25 discussed and addressed. The EIS seems to make more 6677 1 importance on aesthetic values for recreation rather 2 than the spiritual link between Aboriginal people and 3 the landscape. 4 3.3. Traditional territories. 5 Traditional territories of Aboriginal people are not 6 defined by borders, okay, they are not defined by 7 borders, aboriginal people, but rather historical 8 movement and cyclical patterns around resource use. 9 (CREE SPOKEN) 10 11 We respect one another. 12 13 (CREE SPOKEN) 14 15 Listen to your elders. 16 17 (CREE SPOKEN) 18 19 In the spring time, in the fall, in the 20 winter time. 21 22 (CREE SPOKEN) 23 24 In other words, Aboriginal people 25 travelled many distances to obtain food and other 6678 1 resources where plentiful, which was in keeping with 2 harmony on environmental and the people who relied on 3 the sustenance, the land and the water had to offer. 4 The defining board, okay, of traditional territory 5 was only constrained by the ability of the land and 6 water to sustain terrestrial and aquatic life. 7 The RMAs are areas defined by modern 8 borders drawn on maps by resource officers and land 9 managers, which often contain small portions of 10 traditional territories. The borders are mostly 11 based on the trapline block boundaries, which were 12 developed in the 1940s. The RMAs allow for 13 Aboriginal input on resource management and provide a 14 local sense of stewardship but provide limited input 15 on development and resource use outside RMA borders 16 where traditional pursuits are maintained to this 17 day. 18 These misconceptions between traditional 19 territory and RMAs have become a source of contention 20 among First Nations, since younger generations tend 21 to see defined borders on maps. 22 23 (CREE SPOKEN) 24 25 Overlaps have always formed part of the 6679 1 kinship between First Nations in the form of trade 2 and other beneficial activities since time 3 immemorial. 4 Number 4, comments. The EIS discusses is 5 impacts of corridor clearing and transmission 6 development as minor in overall scope. It appears 7 this kind of linear thinking minimizes physical 8 impacts since it is anticipated that only a small 9 portion of Mosakahiken Cree's traditional territory 10 would be affected. Aboriginal peoples think in terms 11 of the whole rather than the sum of parts in 12 discussing and evaluating environmental impacts. The 13 EIS takes the western scientific approach. It takes 14 the western scientific approach, right, in dealing 15 with water, the people, the corridor development 16 through traditional knowledge. Oh. 17 MS. AVERY KINEW: You missed. 18 MR. CAMPBELL: Yeah, yeah, I know. In 19 dealing with impacts and long-term effects and not 20 fully addressing the interaction between the land, 21 the water, the people and corridor development 22 through traditional knowledge. It appears that all 23 traditional knowledge in the EIS is used as a 24 reference system to the scientific approach but 25 places no importance on how construction will affect 6680 1 local Aboriginal population in non-quantifiable areas 2 such as spirituality and value systems. 3 As mentioned in Section 3.2, no 4 discussion of spiritual impacts is brought forth in 5 the EIS, no discussions, since the EIS seems to place 6 more importance on the western scientific approach. 7 Visual impacts on the landscape from structures, 8 powerlines, communication towers, when undertaking 9 traditional pursuits leaves one with the feeling of 10 invasion in personal space. This kind of impact is 11 not quantifiable, okay, in the western scientific 12 sense, but is just as important an impact to the 13 local population. 14 In spite of claims about the traditional 15 knowledge, there seems to be no recognition in the 16 EIS about the impacts of the proposed transmission 17 line in terms of Aboriginal values such as teaching 18 respect for the environment and animals. 19 Construction of the transmission line will be 20 contrary to the Cree value systems since it will not 21 be possible to teach certain values associated with 22 habitats and conservation because of the landscape 23 being altered in perpetuity, (Cree spoken), forever. 24 Ongoing consultation with local persons, 25 both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, will be required 6681 1 for continued facilities management such as the 2 right-of-way clearing, right-of-way clearing, as well 3 as environmental monitoring activities. In the case 4 of the latter, Manitoba Hydro should consult with the 5 Moose Lake Resource Management Board on any planned 6 activities and provide documentation on any 7 monitoring required by internal and Provincial 8 requests. This will be important especially if 9 Manitoba Hydro plans to conduct vegetation management 10 through the use of herbicides. 11 The Mosakahiken Cree Nation would insist 12 on consultation with Moose Lake Resource Management 13 Board and the provision of any monitoring information 14 at the very least. 15 And there is a map there and it shows on 16 map 1 we have a selected area of 50 acres around that 17 for the future benefit of our community economically. 18 19 (CREE SPOKEN) 20 21 Thank you very much. I hope that sort of 22 -- is that a good report? 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 24 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we just 25 might enter as Exhibit number MCN-1000, the 6682 1 presentation by Mosakahiken Cree Nation. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 4 (EXHIBIT MCN-1000: Presentation by 5 Mosakahiken Cree Nation, Review of 6 Wuskwatim Transmission Environmental 7 Impact Statement, Submission to the Clean 8 Environment Commission, May 27, 2004) 9 10 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Chairman, if I may. 11 Councillor Jerry from Mosakahiken. 12 13 (CREE SPOKEN) 14 15 MR. CAMPBELL: On behalf of Mosakahiken 16 Cree Nation, we're really honoured to be here to do 17 this presentation and that we do support NCN in 18 whatever sort of project that you guys are doing. 19 But back home there, sort of reflecting 20 back in the early seventies, early sixties, there's 21 been a lot of damage has been done regarding the 22 Grand Rapids project on our lands. Our reserve lands 23 were taken. That's how I sort of mentioned it. 24 I just wanted to sort of mention that 25 there should be programs available and whoever is 6683 1 affected with this project that you guys are doing. 2 Because that's how we're sort of having a hard time 3 trying to find programs but Hydro is working with us 4 back home. They have consultants and we phone them 5 and we tell them the problems and they do work with 6 us, slowly. But before it was sort of like, well, 7 you're on your own, you had your compensation 8 already. But it wasn't. Like our livelihoods will 9 always be there. 10 But in respect, we do support this 11 program about the Wuskwatim you guys are doing. And 12 that's what I'm telling the public here and I'm 13 telling to NCN. Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Just getting 15 back to the map you have at the end here, Mr. 16 Campbell. In the inset map in the corner, you have a 17 large square in that. Is that intended to represent 18 the Resource Management Area of MCN or is this the 19 entire map? This square represents this broader map 20 here? 21 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. Maybe I should ask 22 my helper here, Sean. I'm not quite sure if that's 23 the area there of the Resource Management but it's 24 something around that size, though. But maybe I 25 should say we should send them a proper map to this, 6684 1 Sean? That's Sean, our consultant from Hobb's & 2 Associates. Sean, can you please stand up, please. 3 MR. KEATING: This is taken from the EIS, 4 TetrES Consultants as it indicates at the bottom of 5 the page, and I understand that's the inset of the 6 area, the area where the transmission line will be. 7 MR. ABRA: I wonder if we can have the 8 name of the gentleman that just spoke, please. 9 What's your name, sir? 10 MR. KEATING: Sean Keating. 11 MR. ABRA: K-e-a-t-i-n-g? 12 MR. KEATING: Yeah. 13 MR. ABRA: Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Personally, I didn't hear 15 any of that that was spoken. My colleague heard 16 better than I did and I understand from what he's 17 telling me that that square in the inset map actually 18 represents the broader map that is here showing where 19 it's placed in Manitoba per se. 20 The proposed transmission line from 21 Herblet Lake to Rall's Island, does that run through 22 your Resource Management Area? 23 MR. CAMPBELL: As I said on the report 24 that I gave for this hearing, I believe it says there 25 like it's around that area, the transmission line, 6685 1 the transmission line. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes? 3 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. It's around that 4 area, FMU 53. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Just north of your -- 6 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, just north. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: And you have already some 8 lines, transmission lines that pass just to the 9 southeast of your -- 10 MR. CAMPBELL: We have Hydro lines, yeah, 11 along the route. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: So is that what you're 13 referring to when you're referring to the fact that 14 you're sort of enclosed between two sets of Hydro 15 lines? 16 MR. CAMPBELL: Can you be more -- 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you referring to your 18 Management Area, your Resource Management Area, or to 19 your community area when you were saying that you 20 were sort of enclosed or set between two sets of 21 Hydro lines? 22 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. I was referring to 23 Resource Management Area. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. 25 MR. CAMPBELL: And that's the map we're 6686 1 going to be providing to the Commission I believe. 2 That's what we'll do maybe today. 3 4 (UNDERTAKING MCN-91: Provide map showing FMU 53 and 5 Resource Management Area) 6 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Have you had discussions 8 with Manitoba Hydro on the proposed transmission 9 corridor? 10 MR. CAMPBELL: No, we haven't, no. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: You haven't at this time? 12 MR. CAMPBELL: No. Well, I don't 13 believe -- I don't think the project isn't going 14 anywhere until the hearings are heard, right, and 15 there's no contractors set yet? 16 THE CHAIRMAN: No. 17 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. But I believe there 18 was a hearing in The Pas that was at Kikiwak Inn, and 19 they were sort of talking about the transmission line 20 back a year ago I believe or a year and a half ago. 21 We were talking about transmission line and I 22 questioned about that of what they were going to do 23 about the bush that they were going to be clearing, 24 the corridor. That's the only time we talked to 25 whoever was presenting at that time. 6687 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it your view that the 2 corridor should be deviated to or do you object to 3 where the corridor is currently sited? 4 MR. CAMPBELL: Are you saying that I 5 don't -- are you saying that I don't go along with 6 it? 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Would it be MCN's 8 objective or desire that this corridor would deviate 9 to avoid your Resource Management Areas? Is that 10 what I'm hearing you say? Or are you saying that you 11 need simply more consultation? 12 MR. CAMPBELL: We need more consultation 13 about the transmission line within that area of our 14 Resource Management Area. I wish I had a map here. 15 Sorry about any confusion here but I wish I had a map 16 here where we can show you our FMU 53 plus our 17 Resource Management Area. But what I'm saying, what 18 we're saying there on behalf of Mosakahiken Cree, if 19 there is ever going to be a transmission line there, 20 like for us to be included, like whoever is going to 21 have the contract so we can create employment, that's 22 what I'm saying. 23 But also in my statement here, 24 traditional, traditionally, like what I'm saying 25 there like long time ago, people used to go in 6688 1 different areas, okay, different areas traditionally. 2 Like they didn't stay in one place. And back home 3 there are elders were saying that traditionally, it's 4 our land around that area where that transmission 5 line on the east -- not east, on the west side of map 6 1 and 2 and 3. Map 1, 2 and 3 based on the map there 7 traditionally. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand Mr. Bedford 9 has a map that would help us understand more clearly 10 where everything is situated and maybe you wanted to 11 use that map? 12 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. Let's see. 13 14 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 15 16 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess the reporter will 17 indicate that there was a period of confusion but we 18 will get some clarification sometime, maybe not right 19 now but sometime. Mr. Mayer. 20 MR. MAYER: Mr. Campbell, we've been told 21 that the reason the transmission line runs the way it 22 does from the point at which it hits the Hudson Bay 23 rail line into Rall's Island is that firstly they ran 24 it down the rail line in order to cause as little 25 disruption as possible because there's already a 6689 1 corridor there. 2 Secondly, they advised that they deviated 3 from the rail line, and I think my memory is correct, 4 because that was at the request of Cormorant who had 5 some concerns about going right down the rail line 6 and that's why you see the deviation from the rail 7 line. So we had heard about the consultation that 8 Manitoba Hydro had with Cormorant and how Cormorant 9 had affected the, to some extent, the preferred 10 route. 11 But are you telling us that you had no 12 such consultations with Manitoba Hydro or their 13 consultants? 14 MR. CAMPBELL: Well, what I am saying is 15 a few months back, I met with this lady at one of the 16 hearings and she came and asked me how are you guys 17 affected with the transmission line? And I told her 18 like we have an FMU 53 and we have our Resource 19 Management Area and it's close around that area. But 20 we came to a conclusion but it didn't really hit the 21 RMA, the Resource Management. But what I had told 22 her was traditionally, traditionally, right, it used 23 to be our land. People didn't used to stay on one 24 place long time ago. People moved around where there 25 was food, okay. That's what I'm saying. 6690 1 MR. MAYER: I understand that, sir; 2 however, there is already a corridor there with the 3 railroad and when you mentioned that you are also 4 bounded by Bipole I and II, in fact, sir, if my 5 geography is correct, the other corridor that is 6 there is Provincial Trunk Highway number 6 which is 7 to the west of Bipole I and II. So you already again 8 have yet another corridor there unrelated to the 9 Hydro line. 10 So recognizing your traditional 11 territory, and I certainly understand what you say 12 when people were pursuing the traditional pursuits of 13 hunting, trapping and sustenance living off the land, 14 one went where the game was or where the fish were or 15 where the fur was in order to find it and recognize 16 that there were no defined boundaries. 17 Now, I'm not sure what you're suggesting 18 to the Commission we ought to do about the fact that 19 we now have those boundaries? 20 MR. CAMPBELL: What do you mean like not 21 have the boundaries? 22 MR. MAYER: Well, I'm saying we have now 23 found ourselves in a situation where we now have 24 boundaries. 25 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes. 6691 1 MR. MAYER: And I am recognizing that 2 fact in assuming that we don't want to tear up either 3 the road or the railroad. What are you suggesting in 4 terms of that route? I kind of thought it was a 5 decent idea that they would follow already existing 6 corridors rather than going through other portions of 7 the forest or through more sensitive areas. I'm 8 really looking for your opinion on that. 9 MR. CAMPBELL: Like the transmission 10 line? Okay. Well, I guess with the corridor, like 11 once it happens, once they have the corridor and once 12 they have the transmission line, there is not much 13 that we can do, right. But all I'm saying was to 14 consult with Mosakahiken Cree, with Moose Lake, hey. 15 Say, for an example, you guys are going 16 to give out a contract, okay, we want some of our 17 members to be in cutting the area, too, okay. But 18 that's what I'm saying. At least we are consulted 19 because in the future, we're going to have a Resource 20 Management Board, right. And traditionally, based on 21 what the elders say, it does affect us. It does 22 affect us. We see it's there, it does affect us when 23 the transmission line is there. Even though it is 24 really needed for more power or whatever. But 25 traditionally, it does, officially it does affect the 6692 1 Cree Nation, Aboriginal people officially. 2 MR. MAYER: I understand your submission 3 and I understand what you're saying about both the 4 visual and the spiritual effect that the imposition 5 of a transmission line through your traditional 6 territory has. I suppose what I'm asking you is do 7 you have any suggestion as to an alternative? 8 MR. CAMPBELL: Alternative, okay. 9 MR. MAYER: I understand your comment 10 about employment and we have heard from Hydro that it 11 is their intention to employ local people as much as 12 possible in all aspects of both these projects. 13 MR. CAMPBELL: I guess I'll say is we 14 have a local radio station back home in Moose Lake. 15 Maybe what they should do is fax the contractor's 16 name of how many employment he needs, labourers, and 17 maybe if that contractor leaves that name and a 18 number, maybe it will be much easier for one of our 19 Band members to get up and pick up a phone and dial 20 and send in applications to our community so we can 21 apply. That's what I suggest that whoever is going 22 to be looking after the contract. 23 MR. MAYER: I have a suspicion that that 24 was what Councillor Thomas will probably want to talk 25 to you about a little later after we leave. But 6693 1 thank you very much. I think I understand your 2 position. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: I think I do too and I 4 think I hear you say, well, okay, we're supporting 5 this project and basically we want to be involved in 6 discussions in terms of the portion of the 7 transmission line that passes nearest to us and we 8 want to be involved on any opportunities that might 9 present themselves as a result of that construction 10 of that line; am I correct? 11 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Nepinak. 13 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. Just a bit of a 14 clarification on the RMAs. I look forward to your 15 mapping. I was looking at what you gave us here and, 16 you know, the community itself and the claimed area. 17 So I guess that will be coming. 18 At the last part of your presentation, 19 you said that, you know, Mosakahiken Cree Nation 20 would insist on consultation with the Moose Lake 21 Management Board and the provision of any monitoring 22 information at the very least. Could you describe 23 the Board a bit for us? Is it totally a First 24 Nations? Or just a little bit of clarification. 25 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. What a Board is, 6694 1 based on our CFA Agreement, it's going to be four 2 members from the province. But out of those four 3 members, one of them is going to be from the 4 community side, mayor and council side. We are 5 adjacent with the Metis side on the reserve. We're 6 adjacent, like, we're just living next door to one 7 another. 8 9 (CREE SPOKEN) 10 11 So there will be one person there that's 12 going to represent on behalf of the province on the 13 Board. And on our side, there's going to be four 14 members, four members plus a chairman, so that's 15 five. So we're always going to have a unanimous 16 decision where we're always going to win. Just 17 kidding. It's a joke. It's only a joke. 18 Well that is going to be the Board and 19 every month they're going to have a meeting, a 20 monthly meeting, a Resource Management meeting. And 21 that's what a Board is. That's the intent of it for 22 the CFA agreement. 23 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. I think that's 24 a very good concept. It's not in existence yet. 25 It's going to be developed. When you say future, 6695 1 it's not in existence, right? It's going to be 2 developed? 3 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, it's going to be 4 developed. It's developed -- I think we're talking 5 about it now. Like we've been talking about it for 6 the past five years since '98. For the past five 7 years since 1998, we've been talking about it and 8 trying to get a Resource Management Board. And we're 9 slowly, like we're learning. 10 But what I think, too, is I think our 11 members should be more trained of what a board is and 12 I think there's some pre-training there before any 13 agreement is signed. 14 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? Mr. 16 Bedford? 17 MR. BEDFORD: Good morning, Mr. Campbell, 18 Mr. Keating, we haven't met. My name is Doug Bedford 19 and I work for Manitoba Hydro. Rather than ask you 20 any questions, I would like to, on behalf of Manitoba 21 Hydro and our partner, NCN, reiterate the invitation 22 that I know Mr. Thomas made to you when we had a 23 little confusion up at the front. And I'd encourage 24 you, as soon as you are finished here, to arrange, 25 with either one of the Manitoba Hydro consultants or 6696 1 employees or directly with Mr. Thomas, a meeting and 2 certainly with both of you in attendance or whoever 3 else you may want to come to the meeting. 4 It's clear to me that you have a lot of 5 questions and concerns that have not yet been 6 answered. I know, Mr. Campbell, that some letters 7 were sent to you and one of the letters answered some 8 questions that you had a couple of years ago about 9 the project. But I repeat, it's clear to me that you 10 have a lot of questions and time would be usefully 11 spent I think with our people listening more to you 12 and providing you with complete answers to all of 13 your questions. 14 Several of the things I would encourage 15 you to ask our employees and consultants when you 16 meet with them is your concerns about transmission 17 right-of-ways. I am aware, and it's apparent to me 18 that you're not, that people did look at effects 19 beyond the actual transmission right-of-ways on 20 animals and vegetation. There is discussion of that 21 in the EIS. But when I listened to your 22 presentation, I thought that you had probably missed 23 that. And I would encourage you to ask them how that 24 was taken into account. 25 You raised concerns about compensation 6697 1 and I am aware that compensation is provided to 2 individual trappers whose hunting and trapping -- 3 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I am aware of that, 4 yeah. 5 MR. BEDFORD: -- is affected. So I would 6 encourage you again to ask questions on that subject 7 when you meet with them. 8 I am aware that there is a volume in the 9 EIS that deals with effects on peoples and culture. 10 And again, it was apparent to me that you probably 11 had missed that in whatever review you did of the 12 EIS. So I'd encourage you to ask them questions 13 about that as well. 14 But unlike what I have done previously 15 here, I don't really have any questions of you. I'd 16 encourage you to ask more questions of us at that 17 sort of meeting. Thank you both. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Campbell, 19 you had been invited to ask all the questions. Don't 20 miss that opportunity. 21 MR. CAMPBELL: We thank you. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dysart, do you have a 23 question? 24 MR. S. DYSART: Yes, sir. Thank you. My 25 name is Sam Dysart, Elder from Nelson House. I want 6698 1 to ask this young man a few questions in Cree. Then 2 if he says yes to me, then I will say it in English. 3 4 (CREE SPOKEN) 5 6 Now I will say this in English. 7 8 (CREE SPOKEN) 9 10 MR. CAMPBELL: Um-hum, yeah. 11 MR. S. DYSART: I asked the young man 12 about traditional life. In tradition, what he was 13 talking about, I followed that. And in respect to 14 what he was talking about, my sister lives in Moose 15 Lake. And I know my sister had 18 children. She's 16 got a lot of grandchildren, maybe that's one of them. 17 And I respect him what he said about the elders. 18 In times, their area is very very rich in 19 trapping. When a man couldn't make a living or 20 another guy, they would take that guy and invite him 21 to trap in his area. That's respect for an elder. 22 When he travels by boat heading the other way, he 23 respects that land when he gets to the other area. 24 Keeps his camp clean, makes sure that he doesn't 25 start a forest fire. When he travels on the highway, 6699 1 either up north or down south, he respects that. 2 And that's one thing we should learn from 3 this young fella is respect for other communities and 4 try and help them. For I have learned something 5 today, that they try and help each other. 6 And I come here in front to thank him and 7 remind you that there's one young man that's trying 8 to help us here and help the project at the same time 9 so we can help each other if we talk and share 10 everything that we have. Thank you. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I keep finding 12 that this is an opportunity for Aboriginal people of 13 Manitoba to meet together which also gives them a 14 chance to get to know one another better, even gives 15 a chance for cousins from various locations to meet 16 their cousins, grandfathers to meet their 17 grandchildren, it's a family gathering. And by the 18 time these hearings get to be finished, we'll all 19 better appreciate the traditional ways of life and 20 we'll all respect them to a larger degree. Ekosi. 21 Were there other questions? 22 MR. CAMPBELL: I was going to say I hope 23 that was a joke. 24 25 (CREE SPOKEN) 6700 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you have questions? 2 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 3 My name is William Osborne from Pimicikamak. And 4 good morning, Commissioners and to everybody. 5 You said something about traditional 6 knowledge. The elders said this is our land. Can 7 you elaborate a little bit more exactly what they 8 meant by that? 9 MR. CAMPBELL: (Cree spoken) What I meant 10 by that when I said (Cree spoken) this is our land 11 (Cree spoken) altogether as a whole. (Cree spoken) 12 in our own community. That's not where we came from 13 (Cree spoken). Where we came from is up north more, 14 hey, up north more. There I don't know where they 15 came from. (Cree spoken). They used to be nomadic. 16 Wherever the food was, that's where they went. 17 That's where we're stuck. (Cree spoken) us people. 18 What is the tradition? What is our land? That's 19 where I stand, that traditional land. (Cree spoken). 20 Do you understand? 21 MR. OSBORNE: So when the elders said our 22 land, they didn't specifically refer to Resource 23 Management Area as defined by the Provincial 24 Government and any other related governments but they 25 more or less refer to the Proposed Transmission Line 6701 1 areas as well. Would you agree? 2 MR. CAMPBELL: (Cree spoken) 3 MR. OSBORNE: When the elders said this 4 is our land, they did not only look at the Proposed 5 Transmission Lines area or the Resource Management 6 Area, would you agree? 7 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I do. 8 MR. OSBORNE: Would you agree as well 9 that the elders said much but very little when they 10 referred to our land, that this is spiritual and 11 sacred site that we occupy. Would you agree? 12 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I do. 13 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you. 14 MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Grewar? 16 MR. GREWAR: Yes, Mr. Chairman. If you 17 are moving on at this point, we do have to do a very 18 brief set-up of the projecter for the Fox Lake Cree 19 Nation. But we would like to proceed before the 20 break to hear from Fox Lake Cree Nation because of 21 some time constraints they have. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. We thank you, Mr. 23 Campbell, for your presentation and appreciate 24 sharing with us your concerns and interests in the 25 future. 6702 1 MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: So we have just a minute 3 here to set something up, Mr. Grewar? 4 MR. GREWAR: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I'd like 5 to call forward Chief Robert Wavey on behalf of the 6 Fox Lake Cree Nation and we'll set up the projector 7 and the laptop and then we'll be ready to go before 8 the break. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, 10 please sit so that we may proceed. I'd like the room 11 to come to order, please. 12 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. 13 Grewar will proceed with the swearing in. 14 MR. GREWAR: Thank you. If I could ask 15 you each to say your name for the record. 16 MS. BEARDY: Elizabeth Beardy. 17 MS. ANDERSON: Jessie Anderson. 18 MR. MAYHAM: I'm Zack Mayham. 19 CHIEF WAVEY: Robert Wavey. 20 MR. DICK: Samson Dick. 21 MR. LAWRENCHUK: Michael Lawrenchuk. 22 MR. GREWAR: I'll ask you together, are 23 you aware that in Manitoba, it is an offence to 24 knowingly mislead this Commission? 25 FOX LAKE: Yes. 6703 1 MR. GREWAR: Okay. Having answered in 2 the affirmative then, do you all promise to tell just 3 the truth before this Commission? 4 FOX LAKE: Yes. 5 MR. GREWAR: Thank you all. 6 7 (ELIZABETH BEARDY: SWORN) 8 (JESSIE ANDERSON: SWORN) 9 (ZACK MAYHAM: SWORN) 10 (ROBERT WAVEY: SWORN) 11 (SAMSON DICK: SWORN) 12 (MIKE LAWRENCHUK: SWORN) 13 14 THE CHAIRMAN: You may begin, Chief 15 Wavey. 16 CHIEF WAVEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 17 Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen, "stakeholders", 18 good morning. I'm not going to go into any technical 19 detail or give any specific examples of what I'm 20 going to be speaking about or to. So these are 21 basically Fox Lake's perspectives and some of our 22 history, I suppose some of the reasons we believe we 23 should be here and I'll take it from there. I'll be 24 speaking in English only and I apologize to those 25 people who don't understand me but I understand we 6704 1 have time constraints so I'll try and be as brief as 2 I can. Ekosi. 3 I am here today to speak about the Fox 4 Lake people's experiences with hydroelectric 5 development as a contribution to these discussions on 6 the Wuskwatim project. 7 Fox Lake is arguably the First Nation 8 that has been most affected by Hydro development in 9 Northern Manitoba. Manitoba's three largest Hydro 10 dams, which provide over 70 per cent of Hydro power 11 in this province, are all located within Fox Lake's 12 traditional territory. 13 Beginning in the early 1960s with the 14 construction of Kettle Rapids followed by the 15 construction of Long Spruce in the 1970s, and the 16 completion of Limestone in 1992, the Fox Lake people 17 have survived three decades of Hydro development. 18 Two more potential sites, Gull Rapids and 19 Conawapa will also be located in Fox Lake's 20 traditional territory. When these two projects are 21 completed, five dams and potentially 5,400 megawatts 22 of hydroelectric capacity will have been developed in 23 an approximately 100 kilometre stretch within Fox 24 Lake's traditional territory. 25 Despite the fact that the dams were built 6705 1 at the heart of our traditional territory, our Cree 2 Nation community and the damages we suffered as a 3 consequence remained overlooked for decades. 4 Prior to the development of the Kettle 5 Rapids Hydro project, the Fox Lake community at 6 Gillam was healthy and self-reliant. In the 1940s 7 and '50s, there were efforts to establish a reserve 8 at Gillam. These efforts were abandoned when our 9 area was targeted for Hydro development. 10 It is difficult to talk about the 11 atrocities and degradation thrust upon the Fox Lake 12 people. It brings back memories of the losses and 13 damages, the pain and grief that the Fox Lake people 14 endured. Our community was taken away from us and 15 redeveloped the needs of the Hydro workforce. 16 In Gillam, we were classified as 17 squatters. Our homes were destroyed and we were 18 relocated into a slum to live in houses substandard 19 to those built for the construction workforce. 20 Our new homes in the middle of this 21 modern Hydro community had no indoor plumbing. 22 Instead, we drew water from a well and used 23 outhouses. Most ironic of all, we had no electrical 24 service even though we lived at the site of the then 25 largest Hydro generating station in Manitoba. 6706 1 I will not go into the atrocities I spoke 2 of earlier out of respect for the living and the 3 dead. It is only important that you understand that 4 we suffered horribly and were basically abandoned by 5 governments to fend for ourselves the best way we 6 knew how. 7 Profound culture shock is the only way I 8 can think of to describe the effects 6,000 9 construction workers had descending upon and taking 10 over our community of 300. 11 Most of the First Nations affected by 12 Hydro development were impacted by changing water 13 levels. We weren't just flooded out, we were crowded 14 out of our own community to make way for Hydro's new 15 northern base of operations and swamped by the influx 16 of workers. 17 The impact was made worse because of the 18 lack of a reserve at Gillam. Other affected First 19 Nation had reserve lands that gave them some 20 protection from the influx of newcomers. The Fox 21 Lake people didn't even have that small level of 22 protection or control over their own community. 23 In addition to the profound social and 24 cultural impacts Hydro development had upon the Fox 25 Lake community, there were damages done to the 6707 1 environment as a result of the flooding. 2 Almost overnight after the closing of the 3 gates of the completed Kettle Rapids dam, the waters 4 rose 100 feet, flooding forever 54,000 acres of Fox 5 Lake's prime traditional resource harvesting area. 6 Most of Fox Lake's traditional resource harvesting 7 area lies under what is now called Stephens Lake, the 8 Kettle Generation Station forebay. 9 For these reasons, we make the claim that 10 Fox Lake people have been more profoundly impacted by 11 Hydro than any other community in Northern Manitoba. 12 Though we were initially a member of the 13 Northern Flood Committee, Fox Lake is not a signatory 14 to the Northern Flood Agreement. Consequently, we 15 have fought for years to secure recognition of the 16 damages done to our land and to our community. Our 17 struggles eventually resulted in the creation of a 18 dialogue with both Manitoba Hydro and the Province of 19 Manitoba to address our grievances. 20 Now, after years of negotiation, Fox Lake 21 Cree Nation is nearing conclusion of an Impact 22 Settlement Agreement with Manitoba Hydro and the 23 Province of Manitoba. 24 At the same time that we are trying to 25 bring closure to Hydro issues of the past, we have 6708 1 begun through the Split Lake/Manitoba Hydro Agreement 2 in principle exploring a potential partnership 3 agreement on the proposed Gull Rapids project, 4 similar to the NCN agreement on Wuskwatim. 5 Fox Lake's goal in the negotiations is to 6 ensure that the current and future membership of the 7 Fox Lake Cree Nation receive the maximum possible 8 benefit with a minimum possible impact from the 9 project. As a result, we do not see our role as 10 advocating for the Gull Rapids project or any other 11 Hydro project. Our role is to explore this 12 opportunity and to provide our membership with the 13 information they need to make a decision. 14 We wanted to make a submission to these 15 hearings because our history with Hydro gives Fox 16 Lake a unique perspective on the subject. Fox Lake 17 supports the right of any First Nation to seek 18 justice for past grievances. We are committed to 19 seeing that Hydro, Manitoba and Canada are held 20 accountable for the environmental and social impacts 21 that were inflicted on all of us by past development. 22 However, we cannot support opposition of future 23 development as a leverage to revisit the settlement 24 of impacts from past projects. 25 Fox Lake supports the Nisichawayasihk 6709 1 people's right to determine for themselves whether 2 this project is beneficial to their community. To 3 not consider the potential opportunities involved in 4 Hydro development would be doing a disservice to 5 their present and future generations. And it is 6 their decision. 7 The membership of NCN will consider this 8 matter and vote in a referendum later this year. And 9 that is where their decision must be made. We 10 recognize the right of people to raise issues before 11 this body but we urge this Commission to respect the 12 autonomy and sovereignty of the NCN. 13 It is important to remember the lessons 14 that have been learned from previous Hydro projects. 15 As a society, we know much more now about short-term 16 and long-term impacts. And because of the lessons 17 learned, environmental impacts are now under much 18 greater scrutiny. The mistakes of the past must 19 never be repeated. And for that, we do rely on the 20 wisdom and discretion of this body and we urge you to 21 take into account all relevant factors about the 22 impacts of this proposal and the measures proposed to 23 address those impacts. 24 As is evident all over the north, Hydro 25 development can be very destructive. In effect, the 6710 1 flooding associated with a Hydro dam turns a 2 naturally flowing river or a lake into a manmade 3 reservoir. Forests are fragmented by transmission 4 lines, exploration camps, cut lines, burrow pits and 5 roads. Traditional travel routes are blocked or made 6 unsafe. Fish and animal movements are disrupted and 7 changed significantly. Productive hunting and 8 fishing areas are lost to the hunter or fisher. 9 The significance of all these changes 10 shows the need to focus on the nature of the 11 ecosystem that emerges from Hydro development. Any 12 alteration to the ecosystem is an alteration of the 13 blueprint of traditional knowledge and pursuits, no 14 matter how minor or irrelevant the alteration may 15 seem to be. When the environment is altered in any 16 way, there is a natural response by the landscape and 17 the wildlife. This natural response then has to be 18 relearned, if possible, by the hunters, fishers and 19 trappers of the area. Fox Lake members continue to 20 experience the consequences of development that paid 21 no attention to the environment. 22 Fox Lake people are just now learning how 23 to exist in the environment left behind by Kettle, 24 Long Spruce and Limestone. That must never happen 25 again. It is time for a new approach to any future 6711 1 projects. 2 Future development must be accompanied by 3 investment into the north's environment. Such 4 investment could serve to offset the environmental 5 damage from future Hydro projects, rehabilitate areas 6 previously affected by development and preserve other 7 lands. 8 Aboriginal traditional knowledge and 9 approaches to environmental protection must be 10 applied to ensure that future development does not 11 destroy the land and waters that have sustained us 12 for thousands of years. Manitoba Hydro, Province of 13 Manitoba and Canada need to partner with First 14 Nations communities in implementing a policy of 15 investment into the northern environment. The 16 affected lands and waters remain after Hydro 17 construction must no longer be seen or viewed as an 18 inevitable byproduct of development. These lands and 19 waters are our traditional territories and must 20 return to being a productive part of the land base of 21 our economies. 22 For this to happen, there must be a 23 serious effort to invest in the restoration and 24 rehabilitation of the physical environment that is 25 left in the wake of Hydro development. For too long 6712 1 now, the north's resources have been taken away by 2 others, gradually eroding the ability of the land to 3 sustain the people who have lived in the area for 4 thousands of years. A policy of reinvestment in the 5 environment would not only begin to reverse this 6 trend but it has the potential to provide economic 7 benefits for the communities of the north. 8 Investment into the post Hydro project 9 environment could result in sustaining the local 10 traditional economies and establishing new 11 conventional outdoor recreation, adventure and 12 tourism-based business operations. Ultimately, for 13 any resource development to be successful for our 14 communities, it must not undermine our traditional 15 economy nor the environment upon which it is based. 16 Our rights to hunt, fish and trap are protected under 17 our Treaty and Aboriginal rights and the Constitution 18 of Canada. However, what good are those rights if 19 the land is destroyed and the rivers are dead? 20 Historically, our traditional economy and 21 the environment have been disregarded in the name of 22 progress, but this cannot be allowed to happen again. 23 24 There have to be mitigation and compensation measures 25 put in place both for the individual and the 6713 1 community. However, this is much more than just 2 simply writing somebody a cheque for the damages. 3 This is about real investment both in the new 4 environment that will emerge after Hydro construction 5 and in the people who will have to learn to live 6 there. 7 To conclude my presentation, the Fox Lake 8 people have a tremendous amount of experience with 9 the impacts of Hydro development. Our experiences 10 can serve to inform any future development that takes 11 place in this province. 12 With any potential future Hydro project, 13 it is of the utmost importance that we learn from the 14 past. 15 We know the impacts construction can have 16 upon people when an area is developed for 17 hydroelectricity. Social impacts must be anticipated 18 and countered with effective mitigation measures and 19 social supports. 20 With regard to environmental impacts, it 21 is no longer acceptable to just write a cheque to 22 compensate the people for the damages done to their 23 lands and waters. There must be significant and 24 long-term investment toward the planning and 25 management of the new environment that will be 6714 1 created by any Hydro project. Such an approach has 2 the potential to serve both environmental protection 3 and community development. 4 And finally, we once more urge the 5 Commission to respect the autonomy and sovereignty of 6 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. The people of the 7 Nisichawayasihk Cree have the opportunity to assess 8 the merits of the agreement proposed with Manitoba 9 Hydro. NCN will decide for itself, through 10 referendum, if the Wuskwatim proposal adequately 11 addresses the social, economic and environmental 12 effects the project will have on their community, 13 others and the environment. 14 The Nisichawayasihk people will live with 15 both the rewards and consequences of Wuskwatim. It 16 must be their decision. Thank you. Ekosi. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Questions? 18 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you very much for 19 your thoughtful, heartfelt, excellent presentation. 20 There is a camera at the back if you did wish to 21 speak Cree or if your elders did. That's for the NCN 22 people. 23 CHIEF WAVEY: Pardon me? 24 MS. AVERY KINEW: If you wish to speak in 25 Cree or your elders, there is a camera recording 6715 1 this. 2 CHIEF WAVEY: I'll give it my best shot. 3 4 (CREE SPOKEN) 5 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no other questions. 7 Oh, sorry. 8 MR. L. DYSART: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 Good morning, Chief Robert Wavey, and the Elders from 10 Fox Lake Cree Nation. My question is are you aware 11 of the Community of South Indian Lake and the lake 12 Southern Indian Lake that is the reservoir that will 13 power the Wuskwatim dam? 14 CHIEF WAVEY: Yes. 15 MR. L. DYSART: Are you also aware the 16 population of South Indian Lake is approximately 17 about 1,000 people and 900 of those are NCN Band 18 members? 19 CHIEF WAVEY: Yes. 20 MR. L. DYSART: Would you agree that that 21 large number of people and a significant percentage 22 of the population of NCN should have been involved in 23 discussions right from the beginning of the Wuskwatim 24 project. 25 CHIEF WAVEY: If they are members of the 6716 1 NCN, I imagine they should have been and may have 2 been. 3 MR. L. DYSART: In regards to traditional 4 knowledge and the definition of traditional 5 knowledge, would you agree that such a large group of 6 people, who may be potentially impacted by the 7 project, be involved in the discussions and 8 definitions of traditional knowledge? 9 CHIEF WAVEY: Yes. 10 MR. L. DYSART: Thank you. I have no 11 further questions. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Osborne. 13 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 14 Good morning, Mr. Wavey. 15 16 (CREE SPOKEN) 17 18 Two questions for clarification purposes, 19 Mr. Wavey. When you said what good are the rights 20 when the lakes and rivers are dead, can you elaborate 21 on that a little bit? 22 CHIEF WAVEY: The impacts, I guess nobody 23 at that time knew what the potential impacts, even 24 though everybody gave their best guess, nobody really 25 understood how development would affect the land and 6717 1 the waters. I mean we're talking, what, 40 years ago 2 now. So if you don't do anything now and if you 3 don't -- we need to look at the new ecosystem that's 4 going to be developed, that's going to be created as 5 a result of development, then we need to consider if 6 there are ways and means that we can look at the new 7 ecosystem as a value added development, to replace 8 any lost -- to replace any lost livelihoods of the 9 traditional harvesters. 10 So in many cases now, in a lot of the 11 areas of the river, there may be fish as you know but 12 they are probably not edible or they are not the 13 quality they used to be. And that's probably almost 14 throughout our whole area. So we have to make sure 15 that even though that if the fish are going to 16 survive, that they are quality fish. 17 And so that's the point I was trying to 18 make or we're trying to make in this presentation. 19 MR. OSBORNE: Would it be safe to say 20 that, I seem to understand that what you're saying in 21 regards to development projects is that you support 22 any development project provided it is a sustainable 23 development project not just any other projects of 24 the past. And that's the reason why you support 25 NCN's Wuskwatim discussions here. 6718 1 CHIEF WAVEY: No, I don't think it's safe 2 to say that by the way. We support their right to 3 make their own decision. And as any First Nation 4 person probably looks at it, I suspect and I trust 5 they will have considered all of the potential 6 effects that that project will have, not only on them 7 but to others and to the environment. And that there 8 are measures going to be put in place or discussions 9 held with those that will be affected. So at the 10 same time, it's their, it's their decision. So I 11 respect their autonomy and their sovereignty. They 12 should be free to make that choice. 13 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you. 14 CHIEF WAVEY: Hydro development in 15 general, well, I think I've also said I'm not here 16 supporting any particular project, not at this time. 17 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Wavey. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We appreciate 19 your presentation. We get from it the benefit of 20 many years of experience, the project, and also 21 cannot do otherwise but see through this the 22 tremendous hope you hold for the future and we 23 appreciate and thank you for that. 24 CHIEF WAVEY: Thank you. 25 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we could 6719 1 assign an exhibit number to the presentation of Chief 2 Robert Wavey at Fox Lake Cree Nation at OTH-1032. 3 (EXHIBIT OTH-1032: Presentation to 4 Manitoba Clean Environment Commission by 5 Chief Robert Wavey, Fox Lake Cree Nation, 6 May 27, 2004) 7 8 MR. GREWAR: And I wonder if the 9 Commission would like to request a copy of the 10 overhead projections on CD? Is that possible? 11 MR. LAWRENCHUK: Yes. 12 13 (UNDERTAKING OTH-92: Produce copy of Fox Lake 14 overhead projections on CD) 15 16 MR. GREWAR: In which I will assign an 17 exhibit number then to those, once received, as 18 OTH-1033. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 19 20 (EXHIBIT OTH-1033: CD of Fox Lake 21 overhead projections) 22 23 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll have a break until 24 11:00. 25 6720 1 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 10:45 A.M. and 2 RECONVENED AT 11:08 A.M.) 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar, would you 5 proceed to swearing in. 6 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could you state your 7 name for the record, please? 8 MR. MARTIN: David Martin. 9 MR. GREWAR: Sir, are you aware that it 10 is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly mislead this 11 Commission? 12 MR. MARTIN: I do now. 13 MR. GREWAR: Knowing that, do you promise 14 to tell just the truth in proceedings before this 15 Commission? 16 MR. MARTIN: I do. 17 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 18 19 (DAVID MARTIN: SWORN) 20 21 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed. 22 MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and 23 Commissioners. The Manitoba Building and 24 Construction Trades Council is pleased to present to 25 the Clean Environment Commission our views and 6721 1 policies as they relate to the proposed Wuskwatim 2 Generating Station and Transmission Project. 3 The Manitoba Building and Construction 4 Trades Council consists of 16 affiliated craft unions 5 and represents over 5,000 construction workers within 6 Manitoba. The building trades has served the 7 interest of craft workers for over 90 years, 8 promoting fair wages, improving working conditions, 9 promoting member education and training programs and 10 promoting our members' goals to have a safe and 11 healthy workplace. 12 We support the Wuskwatim project for the 13 economic benefits that it offers all of Manitobans, 14 and in particular, those living in the north. Major 15 developments such as a Wuskwatim Generating Station 16 and Transmission Project have the potential to offer 17 an unprecedented level of training opportunities and 18 jobs for those working on the project. 19 Minister Reg Alcock, President of the 20 Treasury Board, Minister responsible for the Canadian 21 Wheat Board and on behalf of the Honourable Joe 22 Volpe, Minister of Human Resources Development in 23 announcing a $22 million investment in northern 24 training stated that he appreciated the wide range of 25 partners involved and added that this initiative will 6722 1 put Northern Manitoba Aboriginal people front and 2 centre in filling the growing demand for a skilled 3 workforce. 4 We have learned that poverty is not the 5 only barrier to success. Systemic barriers are 6 deterrents for Aboriginal or Northern people wishing 7 to enter a trade. These include program funding that 8 is inconsistent or lacking, misleading information, 9 want people to train but can't find jobs, 10 project-related training that is inadequate, leaving 11 the student unable to work on the dam site but able 12 to build a house on a reserve. If they choose not to 13 leave the community, the job ends when the project 14 ends. Industry driven programs that lack 15 cross-cultural training. A lack of community and/or 16 Aboriginal business in program design and ongoing 17 monitoring. Funds that can be limited for supplies 18 but not sufficient for the success of the student. 19 And too much of repeat training without 20 certification. 21 In addition, those wanting to enter a 22 trade and become integrated into Canada's workforce 23 face internal barriers as well. These include 24 prejudice or lack of cultural awareness on the site. 25 Hiring trends done by word of mouth where contractors 6723 1 tend to bring in their own workers from other 2 provinces. Formal education restrictions. Low 3 self-esteem, lack of skills and knowledge, lack of 4 mobility, lack of transportation, cycles of poverty 5 and dependence on social assistance, isolation either 6 in location or on the job, and lack of after care and 7 follow-up. 8 During the Limestone Project, great 9 numbers of Northern Aboriginals were promised that 10 they would reap the benefits of the construction 11 through a provision of the Northern Aboriginals and 12 residents. The Burntwood/Nelson Collective Agreement 13 contained provisions for hiring but no provisions for 14 training. As a result, very few Aboriginal people 15 worked in designated trade areas on the project and 16 went on to become journeypersons. 17 Some of the events that occurred on the 18 Limestone Project will reoccur if we are not diligent 19 in the training and tracking of Aboriginal and 20 northern apprentices. For example, the Northern 21 Resident Employment Committee annual report of, I 22 just want to correct our statement, that's 1991, not 23 1999, demonstrates the following. In the period of 24 1986 to 1991, the percentage of Northern Aboriginals 25 working as high as 31 per cent. Resignations from 6724 1 this group, however, were as high as 132 per cent. 2 Discharged workers in the same period added to this 3 group with a high of 13 per cent. Of the 46 workers 4 remaining at the end of the seven year period, 60 per 5 cent worked in non-construction occupations such as 6 catering, security guards and labourers. And very 7 few individuals had the opportunity to reach 8 journeyperson status in their trade. 9 Understandably, the manner in which mega 10 Hydro projects have addressed training has broken 11 promises and spirit. Wuskwatim gives us the 12 opportunity to work together to heal the spirits of 13 Aboriginal and northern people and to provide them 14 with meaningful productive training. 15 Real partnerships and investment in 16 training and employment will be embraced by the 17 Manitoba Building Trades and the Allied Hydro 18 Council. If I can just clarify here, Mr. Chairman, 19 the Manitoba Building Trade and the Allied Hydro 20 Council are in many ways synonymous in their make-up 21 and who participates. 22 We will address the past and present 23 barriers and remember the lessons that have been 24 taught. This is most important now as the Aboriginal 25 population is growing at three times the rate of the 6725 1 non-Aboriginal population. It is suggested that by 2 2006, the population of working age aboriginals will 3 number 920,000 nationally, with the majority residing 4 in Western Canada. This is a challenge to the 5 construction sector to take advantage of an 6 increasing labour pool. To achieve this, we must 7 start now, so we have journeymen ready for the 8 future. Currently, only 3 per cent of workers in 9 construction are Aboriginal or Metis. Given 10 shortages that exist now or will occur, this growth 11 in population will provide the construction industry 12 with an important resource. 13 We believe that the training of northern 14 Aboriginal and residents has to be customized to the 15 learner. 16 Studies have shown that institutional 17 learning does not produce the same required results 18 in northern areas as it does in southern or 19 mainstream areas due to lower education levels, 20 cultural bias and teaching methodology. With 21 traditional oral culture, learning is best achieved 22 by exploration, communication and hands-on 23 experience. In theory, the apprenticeship system 24 would seem to be a very good fit with 80 per cent of 25 the work being practical and on the job and 20 per 6726 1 cent in the classroom. However, this is not the 2 case. 3 Bias wording of material used at work and 4 apprenticeship exams result in failure. 5 During the building of the Limestone 6 Generating Station, there were carpenters and 7 electricians trained, to name a few. However, when 8 it came time to build the dam, the training had made 9 participants able to whether build or wire a house 10 but none had learned the skills required to be 11 productive at the site. Potential journeypersons 12 were either let go or resigned because they were 13 unprepared for work. The end result was very few 14 apprentices could continue their training and fewer 15 journeypersons who could teach them. 16 Training needs to be relevant to the 17 learner. Having to learn job specific workplace 18 essential skills and applying prior learning 19 assessment tools will help to ensure the lack of 20 formal education does not become a barrier to 21 success. 22 There has to be a significant lead time 23 to make participants employment ready to ensure that 24 Northern Aboriginals will be nearing the last year 25 apprenticeship or have become a journeyperson. 6727 1 Cultural awareness training should be provided to 2 every person on the work site. 3 Job orientation, life skills, 4 pre-employment, upgrading, hands-on paid training, 5 mentoring, job shadowing, consistent evaluations and 6 follow-up should also be provided. A conscious 7 effort to provide real training and work with results 8 should be adhered to. Hours of training should be 9 recognized as apprenticeship hours and certification 10 outside of apprenticeship for those when required for 11 trades such as labourers, equipment operators and 12 others who are not designated trades. 13 Most of the jobs created on this project 14 will be unionized under the Burntwood/Nelson 15 Agreement between Hydro management and the Allied 16 Hydro Council which is made up of the unions in the 17 Manitoba Building and Construction Trades Council. 18 This agreement is currently being renegotiated and 19 construction is expected to take six years. 20 The Manitoba Building and Construction 21 Trades Council recognizes the difficulty of the past 22 and the potential for the future. The Wuskwatim 23 Generating Station and Transmission Project will 24 generate 100 jobs in the first two years; however, 25 most will be non-designated trades such as labourers, 6728 1 catering, security and clerical staff. 2 This will allow the Manitoba building 3 trades to promote the Northern Aboriginal employment 4 in these areas while preparing participants to move 5 towards their career goals in the trades through 6 assessment and placement with an employer or 7 training. 8 Northern aboriginals should have an input 9 in developing and validating the methods and language 10 of training programs. In addition, relationships 11 must be forged with community members and they should 12 take the role of the stakeholders as an ownership 13 role and provide the apprentice front-line access to 14 apprenticeship programs. 15 We are also pleased to say that workplace 16 health and safety will be given a high priority on 17 the Wuskwatim project. Recent studies indicate that 18 the highest number of accidents involve young, 19 inexperienced and undertrained workers. 20 The future of the province looks bright 21 for next 10 years or so with the potential of more 22 Hydro work including Conawapa and Gull-Keeyask as 23 well as projects such as the Floodway Expansion 24 Project, a new Hydro building and the potential of 25 the Manitoba-Nunavut road are also being studied. 6729 1 Wuskwatim marks a new era in the 2 development of Northern Manitoba. It is a model of 3 how communities can work in partnership with 4 developers like Manitoba Hydro, allowing them to 5 share in the profits and opportunities generated by 6 the development. 7 The potential future growth in this 8 generation and the next will show itself by 9 excellence in community schools, the development of a 10 learning culture, plans for post-secondary education 11 and as well as tradesmen or doctors, a prosperous 12 community where buildings, business and houses are 13 being built and the promise of a bright tomorrow. To 14 reach this potential, there must first be hope. With 15 the Wuskwatim Generating Station and the Transmission 16 Project, a reality, there is indeed hope. 17 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Martin. 19 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 20 assign Exhibit number OTH-1034 to the presentation of 21 the Manitoba Building and Construction Trades 22 Council. 23 24 (EXHIBIT OTH-1034: Presentation by David 25 Martin, Executive Director, Manitoba 6730 1 Building and Construction Trades Council, 2 May 27, 2004) 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martin. As Executive 5 Director of the Manitoba Building Trades, is this 6 your document? 7 MR. MARTIN: Yes, it is. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: You make it yours? 9 MR. MARTIN: I'm sorry? 10 THE CHAIRMAN: You make it yours? You 11 are committed to this document? 12 MR. MARTIN: We are. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: We heard a moment ago 14 about the bad experience with some of the 15 hydroelectric projects which affected the people of 16 Fox Lake and the learning that they indicate they 17 have acquired from it. You come here to tell us as 18 well the learning that the building trades have 19 learned from past projects. And you're saying that 20 with this learning, if I hear you correctly, you have 21 learned as well in your field of the mistakes of the 22 past, that you are prepared to address this project 23 in a different way altogether. Do you think there is 24 enough lead time between now, and if Wuskwatim is to 25 proceed, to prepare the workers to actually fulfil 6731 1 the roles that you see for them? 2 MR. MARTIN: I think a short answer is 3 yes, but it would obviously be a qualified answer not 4 knowing when the start time is going to actually 5 happen. And I just want to comment a little bit on 6 what we have learned and how we have learned it. 7 The building trades unions, although, 8 have been peripheral in the areas of training in 9 previous Hydro projects. Since the completion of 10 Limestone, there has been a change in direction as 11 far as trade unions are concerned in embracing and 12 committing to the training of their workforce. And 13 we think we have a new skill to offer, so to speak, 14 in today's world that we didn't have perhaps in the 15 first 40 years of Hydro development in Manitoba. 16 Some of the references in this document 17 to what we have learned did not just come from 18 previous Hydro development projects but also has come 19 through some of the work that we are involved in 20 nationally with our Construction Sector Council where 21 recent studies of Aboriginal training programs across 22 this country has given us some information that we 23 think is valuable and applicable to a project like 24 this. 25 Getting back to your question as to 6732 1 whether or not training programs can be implemented 2 in a manner that would facilitate skilled workers 3 entering the project, I think we are saying we feel 4 we have a contribution to make as building trade 5 unions, as part of the process. And with the 6 cooperation of all those parties, we believe that 7 this could be successful as well. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We've heard 9 here Hydro's commitment to giving priority to people 10 of the north and specifically to Aboriginal people as 11 being employed and trained for the employment or jobs 12 that will be available in this project. Are you 13 committed to the same extent to harmonize with 14 Hydro's commitment to make this happen? 15 MR. MARTIN: It's been our history to 16 recognize the Aboriginal communities in Northern 17 Manitoba and development Hydro projects within the 18 Burntwood/Nelson Collective Agreement and we would 19 continue to support that, yes. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Sargeant. 21 MR. SARGEANT: Mr. Martin, how big a job 22 would it be to, I don't know whether adapt is a right 23 word, but I'll use it, adapt the apprenticeship 24 programs to achieve some of what you've set out in 25 this paper. Would it be a major task or is it just a 6733 1 matter of having some commitment to some of these 2 other aspects that you noted? 3 MR. MARTIN: I think there's been -- and 4 just as an aside, I am also a board member on the 5 Manitoba Apprenticeship Trades Qualification Board 6 and I know the Board and the province and the 7 participants in apprenticeship training have looked 8 at the issue of accommodating alternative ways to 9 deliver apprenticeship programs to groups such as 10 Aboriginal groups. And we've had some attempts at 11 that in the past with some success and some failures. 12 But I believe there's a willingness by the 13 participants in apprenticeship training to make an 14 initiative like Aboriginal training work in 15 community. 16 I know recently, our Board and the 17 government has appointed an Aboriginal councillor in 18 the north specifically for apprenticeship training. 19 So I think with a sincere effort to look 20 at how apprenticeship programs and the content of the 21 curriculum are written and delivered would lead to 22 success for more participants. 23 MR. SARGEANT: We heard here yesterday, 24 we've heard it before, but it was confirmed yesterday 25 by Ken Adams, the Vice-President of Hydro, 6734 1 particularly in the aftermath of the announcement of 2 the $22 million federal money last week, we heard 3 that there's about $60 million now available for 4 training Northern Aboriginal workers. 5 Have you, either through your role with 6 the Building Trades Council or through your role with 7 the Apprenticeship Program, been involved in setting 8 up any of that training? 9 MR. MARTIN: No, we haven't. 10 MR. SARGEANT: Would you be prepared to 11 participate? 12 MR. MARTIN: We would absolutely be 13 prepared to participate. And I think it would be -- 14 this is a personal opinion, I think it would be a 15 mistake to ignore us. I think we have a lot to 16 offer. We have a lot of knowledge. We are in a 17 front line of developing our workforce and securing 18 jobs for workers and I think we are a natural fit to 19 that process. 20 MR. SARGEANT: Were you involved in the 21 mid-eighties with any of the development of the 22 Limestone Training and Employment Agency? 23 MR. MARTIN: No. 24 MR. SARGEANT: Maybe you know the 25 history. I understand, I was told this recently by 6735 1 somebody who was quite involved in that process, that 2 there was actually the building trades unions that 3 insisted that a certain percentage of trainees on the 4 jobs be Aboriginal. Are you familiar with that, do 5 you know that? 6 MR. MARTIN: It's part of the -- it's 7 part of the Burntwood/Nelson agreement as far as the 8 hiring preference is concerned. And I'm simply going 9 by memory. I do know that building trades unions, I 10 think the United Association of Plumbers and Pipe 11 Fitters did some extensive training with some of the 12 trades that they represent as well as others. And I 13 know there has been a historical support for 14 developing skilled workers within the Aboriginal 15 communities for the trade unions. 16 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. Those are all 17 the questions I have. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Nepinak. 19 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. Mr. Martin, I 20 wonder if you can explain the term Allied Council, 21 Allied Hydro Council? I know Hydro Management but 22 you also used the term Allied Hydro Council is made 23 up of unions. Could you explain that for us, please? 24 MR. MARTIN: The Allied Hydro Council of 25 Manitoba is an umbrella group of the building trades 6736 1 construction unions within the province which is 2 formed into an Allied Hydro Council. They are the 3 signatory partners to the Burntwood/Nelson Agreement. 4 The difference between the Allied Hydro 5 Council and the Manitoba Building Trades Council is 6 that within the Allied Hydro Council, it is also 7 representative by the international unions across 8 Canada. So there is another representation group 9 from our internationals within the Allied Hydro 10 Council. So there are two bodies there. 11 The Manitoba Building Trades Council is 12 made up of the building trades unions within the 13 province. So fundamentally, they are one in the same 14 group. 15 MR. NEPINAK: Okay. You stated that 16 currently, only 3 per cent of the workers in 17 construction are Aboriginal or Metis. Under your 18 vision or commitment, do you see in the next say six 19 years, you know, the life span of the project that it 20 goes through, do you see an increase of this in that 21 time period say to about 20 per cent? 22 MR. MARTIN: To 20 per cent? 23 MR. NEPINAK: Yes. 24 MR. MARTIN: I don't think 20 per cent is 25 an unrealistic number and especially in projects that 6737 1 are stationed in Northern Manitoba. I think everyone 2 here is aware of the statistical number of 14 or 15 3 per cent of the Aboriginal population of Manitoba is 4 in fact Aboriginal. 5 We would welcome any increase in the 6 Aboriginal participation in the construction 7 workforce, not just here in Manitoba but across 8 Canada. 9 MR. NEPINAK: Okay. My final question is 10 you say your allied workers in Hydro, you are 11 renegotiating the agreement. I don't see or I don't 12 hear the proponent, the second proponent in this 13 project is NCN. Is that part of the renegotiating 14 package? 15 MR. MARTIN: The agreement has been 16 negotiated between the Allied Hydro Council and the 17 Hydro Management Team, I believe that's the correct 18 name, which is the employer in that particular 19 relationship. The relationship with NCN, I am -- 20 that's something that Hydro is working on or is 21 declaring. We fundamentally bargain with the Hydro 22 Management Team when we bargain that agreement. 23 MS. AVERY KINEW: Just a supplementary to 24 that, we did hear, I don't remember which union, but 25 they did say that NCN was involved in the background 6738 1 and the First Nations were involved. 2 MR. MARTIN: Well, I know there is a 3 letter, Principle Agreement I believe it's called, 4 with NCN and Hydro and I know that they have input in 5 the process. What that input entails is we're not 6 part of that process so I can't really comment on it. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mayer. 8 MR. MAYER: I take it, Mr. Martin, it 9 would be fair to say that the Allied Hydro Council is 10 the collective bargaining agent for all the unionized 11 workers on the Hydro project; is that a fair -- 12 MR. MARTIN: Well put. 13 MR. MAYER: Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? 15 MR. SARGEANT: Does that include caterers 16 and security? 17 MR. MARTIN: Yes. 18 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Avery Kinew, I thought 20 you had completed. Go ahead. 21 MS. AVERY KINEW: No, I was just jumping 22 in there. Mr. Martin, I thank you for bringing more 23 detail than anybody has so far. I just wondered on 24 page 3, you talk about a report with the Northern 25 Residents Employment Committee Annual Report 1991. 6739 1 Who is that? Is that Manitoba? 2 MR. MARTIN: That's Manitoba, yes. 3 MS. AVERY KINEW: Do you have a 4 reference? 5 MR. MARTIN: We could provide copies, if 6 the Commission would like, of the full report. 7 8 (UNDERTAKING OTH-93: Provide copy of full Northern 9 Residents Employment Committee Annual Report 1991) 10 11 MS. AVERY KINEW: Maybe I've missed it in 12 the EIS but I've never seen a listing of who belongs 13 to the Trades and Construction Council or the Allied 14 Hydro Council? 15 MR. MARTIN: We could provide that as 16 well. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We'd 18 appreciate if you do. 19 MR. MARTIN: Okay. Both of those 20 reports? 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, yes. 22 23 (UNDERTAKING OTH-94: Provide a listing of who 24 belongs to the Trades and Construction Council or the 25 Allied Hydro Council) 6740 1 MS. AVERY KINEW: I was also wondering, 2 you answered a question to Mr. Sargeant, I think, 3 that you have not been involved in setting up 4 training? 5 MR. MARTIN: In which? 6 MS. AVERY KINEW: You have not been 7 involved in setting up training or discussions about 8 training yet and yet you are on the provincial board 9 of apprenticeship qualification? 10 MR. MARTIN: I took the question to mean 11 they bill the Trades Council itself as being a 12 recognized partner to the development of training in 13 the north. No, we have not. 14 MS. AVERY KINEW: As part of the 15 provincial board, have you been involved? I 16 understand advance education and training is very 17 involved? 18 MR. MARTIN: Yes, they are. They have a 19 committee dealing with Aboriginal apprenticeship 20 programs in the north. They have established an 21 Aboriginal apprenticeship councillor in the north and 22 our role as a Board member is advisory to that whole 23 process. 24 MS. AVERY KINEW: Weren't you appointed 25 to that because you're the head of the Tradesmen and 6741 1 Construction Union? 2 MR. MARTIN: Not because I was a head, it 3 was because someone wanted me to be there. 4 MS. AVERY KINEW: So this is some kind of 5 interlocking directorate situation? The union is not 6 involved but you're involved? I don't understand 7 this? 8 MR. MARTIN: The Apprenticeship Board is 9 a 13 person board I believe of which six 10 representatives comes from labour. Pardon me, I 11 think it's five from labour and five from employers 12 as well as community representatives and public 13 interest groups. So I am appointed as one of the 14 labour representatives. 15 So our role on the board is to represent 16 all labour. And my background is construction which 17 two of us come from the construction sector. 18 MS. AVERY KINEW: But you feel the union 19 should be more formally involved? 20 MR. MARTIN: I think the role that we can 21 offer in regards to establishing training initiatives 22 with Aboriginal groups would be a positive one for 23 all parties, especially bringing our expertise to the 24 table. 25 MS. AVERY KINEW: We've heard a lot in 6742 1 the course of these hearings about the bad track 2 record of employing Native people in Hydro projects 3 and we see that you clearly state that training was 4 the crucial issue and wasn't connected enough and now 5 there is an opportunity to be more connected? 6 MR. MARTIN: Our view is that the 7 connection to jobs and training has been missing in 8 past Allied Hydro agreements, a direct connection 9 written into the collective agreement. The form of 10 training that, as we understand it in the past, has 11 been preparing workers for potential jobs but without 12 no firm commitment or obligation that those jobs will 13 actually take place or people will actually be hired. 14 And we also believe there is a bigger role that we 15 all can play in ensuring that individuals that are 16 trained will be successful and will, in fact, fulfil 17 those jobs and not just simply be given the chance to 18 fill the job. 19 MS. AVERY KINEW: I understand that the 20 contractors will be posting the job descriptions, 21 maybe even helping to design these. And how would 22 the union recommend getting around hiring that tends 23 to be done by word of mouth that's on page 2 of your 24 presentation? 25 MR. MARTIN: The reference to hiring by 6743 1 word of mouth is the traditional method I guess you 2 might say in the construction industry as it exists 3 across the country. 4 MS. AVERY KINEW: Contractors are used to 5 working with certain crews? 6 MR. MARTIN: Contractors and -- in the 7 construction contractor, typically a small 8 contractor, many times less than 20 employees. And 9 so it's a very close-knit group. And they have a 10 ready supply in some cases of friends, family and 11 acquaintances that they select for hiring. 12 In the case of the Allied Hydro projects 13 or Hydro projects, the hiring process is very clear 14 under the Collective Agreement. And all hiring does 15 come through the unions. 16 The issue that we think can be improved 17 on is the section in the agreement that provides the 18 contractor with the final say on who's qualified. 19 And I think if more effort was placed on determining 20 the qualifications of individuals and ensuring they 21 are qualified, and that's the role I think we can 22 play in better training initiatives and stronger 23 language within the agreement, that workers will in 24 fact be not just trained but would be preferenced for 25 jobs and a s