06929 1 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION 2 3 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 4 Volume 29 5 6 Including List of Participants 7 8 9 10 Hearing 11 12 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 13 14 Presiding: 15 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair 16 Kathi Kinew 17 Harvey Nepinak 18 Robert Mayer 19 Terry Sargeant 20 21 Friday, May 28, 2004 22 Sheraton Hotel 23 161 Donald Street 24 Winnipeg, Manitoba 25 06930 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Clean Environment Commission: 4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman 5 Terry Sargeant Member 6 Harvey Nepinak Member 7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member 8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission 9 Rory Grewar Staff 10 CEC Advisors: 11 Mel Falk 12 Dave Farlinger 13 Jack Scriven 14 Jim Sandison 15 Jean McClellan 16 Brent McLean 17 Kyla Gibson 18 19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation: 20 Chief Jerry Primrose 21 Elvis Thomas 22 Campbell MacInnes 23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux 24 25 06931 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Manitoba Conservation: 4 Larry Strachan 5 Trent Hreno 6 7 Manitoba Hydro/NCN: 8 Doug Bedford, Counsel 9 Bob Adkins, Counsel 10 Marvin Shaffer 11 Ed Wojczynski 12 Ken Adams 13 Carolyn Wray 14 Ron Mazur 15 Lloyd Kuczek 16 Cam Osler 17 Stuart Davies 18 David Hicks 19 George Rempel 20 David Cormie 21 Alex Fleming 22 Marvin Shaffer 23 Blair McMahon 24 25 06932 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 O-PIPON-NA-PIWIN CREE NATION 4 Headman 5 Chris Baker 6 7 SWAMPY CREE TRIBAL COUNCIL 8 Chief Pascall Bighetty 9 Frank Turner 10 11 WINNIPEG AND MANITOBA CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE 12 Graham Starmer 13 Dave Angus 14 15 NCN YOUTH 16 Willie Moore 17 Shawna Linklater 18 Dennis bunn 19 Geraldine Spence 20 Faith McDonald 21 Tiffany Yetman 22 Brian Tait 23 Natasha Moody 24 Bonnie Linklater 25 06933 1 LIST OF PARTICPANTS 2 3 PIMICIKAMAK CREE NATION 4 Kate Kempton 5 Eugenie Mercredi 6 William Osborne 7 8 Anissa Bunn - Private 9 10 Ramona Neckoway - Private 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 06934 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 3 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE 4 5 MH/NCN-1046: Letter, January 29, 2004 6 from Ed Wojczynkski and Ruth 7 Kristjanson, Manitoba Hydro to Chief 8 Primrose, Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. 9 Re: Future Development Provisions 10 Regarding South Indian Lake 6998 11 12 OTH-1037: Presentation to Clean 13 Environment Commission, Wuskwatim 14 Hearings by Frank Turner, Executive 15 Director Swampy Cree Tribal Council 16 May 28, 2004 7019 17 18 19 OTH-1038: Presentation by 20 Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce 21 and Manitoba Chambers of Commerce 22 to the Manitoba 23 Clean Environment Commission 24 Wuskwatim Generation and 25 Transmission Project 7030 06935 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE 3 4 OTH-1039: Submission by nine 5 youth members of NCN to the Clean 6 Environment Commission regarding the 7 Wuskwatim Generating Station and 8 Transmission Project, May 28, 2004 7044 9 10 MH/NCN-1047: Amendment to Response to Clean 11 Environment Commission's request for 12 a comparison of Agreement Concerning 13 a New Relationsship, 2002 14 between the Government of Quebec and 15 the Cress of Quebec and Wuskwatim Project 16 Summary of Understandings, 2003 between 17 NCN and Manitoba Hydro May 27, 2004 7048 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 06936 1 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS 2 3 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE 4 5 6 7 NO UNDERTAKINGS GIVEN 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 06937 1 FRIDAY, MAY 28, 2004 2 Upon commencing at 9:05 a.m. 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, 5 it's five after nine. We indicated yesterday that 6 we modified the order this morning to proceed with 7 the questions related to the presentation made by 8 Mr. Chris Baker in regards to the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin 9 Cree Nation Reservation, so we shall continue with 10 that. 11 Ms. Valerie Lemieux was questioning 12 Mr. Baker when we stopped yesterday and indicated 13 that you were not finished. So maybe you want to 14 carry on. Mr. Baker. 15 MR. BAKER: Good morning to all. 16 First, I would like to say my intentions yesterday 17 were not to offend anybody, and if I did, I 18 apologize for that. And the other thing that I 19 need to say is I would like Lloyd, my advisor, to 20 be sworn in. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar. 22 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could you state your 23 name for the record, please. 24 MR. GRAHAM: Yes. My name is Lloyd 25 Graham. 06938 1 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Graham, are you aware 2 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 3 mislead this Commission? 4 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, I am. 5 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 6 just the truth in proceedings before this 7 Commission? 8 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, I do. 9 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 10 (LLOYD GRAHAM: SWORN) 11 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Mr. 12 Graham, you can confirm for us then that you had 13 been advising Mr. Baker on behalf of 14 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation with respect to these 15 proceedings? 16 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, I have. 17 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And you 18 also have been advising him with respect to the 19 separation process between the Nisichawayasihk 20 Cree Nation and O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation; is 21 that correct? 22 MR. GRAHAM: Yes. For the information 23 of the Commission, I've had a very close 24 relationship with the people of South Indian Lake 25 since at least 1988. 06939 1 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And 2 currently, you are in private consulting business; 3 is that correct? 4 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, I am. 5 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And 6 before that, you were with INAC; is that right? 7 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, I was. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And how long 9 were you with INAC? 10 MR. GRAHAM: Eighteen and a half 11 years. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And when 13 did you leave INAC? 14 MR. GRAHAM: June 19 -- or sorry, June 15 2001. 16 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And 17 since that time, you've been advising Mr. Baker? 18 MR. GRAHAM: Yes. 19 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: In addition, 20 you have legal counsel present who has been 21 advising you, and that's Mr. Kelsch; is that 22 correct? 23 MR. BAKER: Can you say that again? 24 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Mr. Kelsch is 25 legal counsel to you, Mr. Baker, as Headman, and 06940 1 he has been advising you throughout these 2 proceedings as well; is that correct? 3 MR. BAKER: For O-Pipon-Na-Piwin, yes. 4 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And he 5 also was advising you with respect to the 6 separation process; is that correct? 7 MR. BAKER: Yes. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And Mr. Kelsch, 9 I noticed when I came into the room this morning, 10 he is at the back of the room; is that correct? 11 MR. BAKER: It looks like him, yes. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: But he is 13 there, right? 14 MR. BAKER: I hope so. 15 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Can you also 16 confirm that you've been working closely with 17 Leslie Dysart with respect to your submissions 18 that you've brought before the Commission? 19 MR. BAKER: No. 20 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: You have not 21 been? 22 MR. BAKER: Not totally. 23 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Have you 24 been working in collaboration with Mr. Dysart at 25 all in terms of the CASIL presentation and your 06941 1 presentation? 2 MR. BAKER: No. 3 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So your 4 position is a separate position, separate as in a 5 different position? 6 MR. BAKER: In what regard? 7 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Well, I'm just 8 wondering if you are bringing forward the same 9 issues to the Commission or if these are different 10 and separate issues from CASIL's position? 11 MR. BAKER: Well, obviously they are. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: They -- 13 MR. BAKER: They are separate. 14 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Are they 15 different? 16 MR. BAKER: Well, if they are 17 separate, yes, they are different. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: You've also 19 been working with Darryl Montgomery, the 20 vice-president of the MMF local in the Thompson 21 region, with respect to your position in relation 22 to these proceedings? 23 MR. BAKER: No. 24 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Now, in 25 terms of the Community of South Indian Lake that 06942 1 you went over with us yesterday that you gave us 2 10 to 20 per cent approximately were not NCN 3 members and you went through other groups of 4 people who live in South Indian Lake; do you 5 remember that? 6 MR. BAKER: It was more 30 per cent 7 because that's what the stats are from the Band 8 Council, Band clerk, membership clerk. That's 9 where I got the stats. 10 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. 11 MR. BAKER: From the department. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: When you're 13 saying 30 per cent, 30 per cent is -- what I 14 thought your evidence yesterday was that 80 to 90 15 per cent of the people living in South Indian Lake 16 were NCN members. Are you saying something 17 different now? 18 MR. BAKER: Pardon me? 19 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I'm trying to 20 clarify. Yesterday I thought your evidence was 21 that 80 to 90 per cent of the people who live in 22 South Indian Lake are NCN members? 23 MR. BAKER: Okay. I'll clarify that. 24 What I meant was the overall Band membership of 25 NCN is approximately in accordance to the Band 06943 1 clerk and Nelson House state in their findings 2 off-reserve people pertaining to South Indian Lake 3 is approximately 30 per cent. And what you asked 4 me yesterday was if, in my opinion, how many 5 people were there in South Indian Lake that are 6 NCN Band members and I agreed with you, yes, there 7 is approximately 80 to 90 per cent. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Are NCN 9 members? 10 MR. BAKER: That's correct. 11 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. So of 12 the remaining 10 to 20 per cent who are either 13 members of other First Nations, non-status people 14 you referred to, what percentage of that remaining 15 group would be Metis? 16 MR. BAKER: Out of the possible 20 per 17 cent, we'll say -- we'll just round off numbers 18 and keep it simple. I don't know for sure. I can 19 only guess. Let me think. Are you talking the 20 Metis or the non-status or -- 21 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: What I'd like 22 you to do is tell me, you gave us the groups 23 yesterday, what percentage do you think is 24 non-status? Is there a difference between the 25 non-status and the Metis, and if so, then give us 06944 1 those percentages? 2 MR. BAKER: How can I answer that? I 3 don't know. 4 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. So you 5 don't know then. Would you agree that it's a 6 small percentage that would be Metis? 7 MR. BAKER: Ten per cent I'll guess. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. So you 9 don't know? 10 MR. BAKER: I can't confirm that, no. 11 I'm just guessing as you asked me to. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. How many 13 years have you lived in South Indian Lake? 14 MR. BAKER: I don't want to tell you 15 my age, Val. 16 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I'll tell you 17 mine after, Chris. 18 MR. BAKER: You're on the record. 19 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: How long have 20 you lived in South Indian Lake? 21 MR. BAKER: About thirty -- I'll guess 22 about 37 years, 35. 23 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Now, 24 you've lived there for a long time, the majority 25 of your life? 06945 1 MR. BAKER: I've lived there, I've 2 trapped there, I've fished there, I've worked 3 there, I grew up there, yes, the majority of my 4 life. Yes, I have. 5 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. 6 MR. BAKER: Except when I went for my 7 education. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Is there 9 a separate Metis community that forms -- 10 MR. BAKER: No. 11 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: -- part of 12 South Indian Lake? 13 MR. BAKER: No. 14 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Thank you. 15 Now, I wonder, Mr. Graham, do you happen to have 16 Volume 8 of the Generation EIS in front of you? 17 MR. GRAHAM: I have some portions of 18 it. 19 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Portions of it, 20 okay. Do you happen to have the table, Table 4.1, 21 that sets out NCN members living on and off 22 reserve? It's page 8-169? 23 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, I do. 24 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: What I just 25 want to go over is the percentage of NCN members 06946 1 who are living at South Indian Lake. If you can 2 just follow from that table, I don't know if the 3 Commissioners have -- 4 MR. SARGEANT: Some of us fail to 5 understand the purpose of this line of 6 questioning. 7 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Yesterday there 8 were some questions that were asked about the 9 percentage of NCN members who are living at South 10 Indian Lake. And you'll recall Mr. Baker 11 indicated that it was 30 per cent. And I just 12 want to go through the numbers and I had indicated 13 yesterday the range goes from 22 to 30 per cent. 14 MR. BAKER: I just want to clarify 15 that and put on the record and I did already 16 clarify that, Mr. Chairman. I was talking of the 17 overall Band membership, not -- I mean if you want 18 to say, Valerie, that there is only 30 per cent 19 people that are NCN members there that are 30 per 20 cent, I think that is wrong. And if you just look 21 to your left and ask Councillor Thomas, he's 22 visited our community a few times, very few times. 23 But nevertheless, he would clarify that. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Really, what we are 25 saying is we don't care whether it's 20 per cent, 06947 1 30 per cent. It won't change anything. 2 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: That's fine, 3 then I'll move on having heard the Commission. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: It won't change 5 anything for us. 6 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Pardon me? 7 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. On page 9 4 of your report. 10 MR. BAKER: Which report, Val? 11 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Your submission 12 yesterday. 13 MR. BAKER: Oh, okay. 14 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay, Chris, at 15 page 4. 16 MR. BAKER: I don't recall making a 17 report. That's why I had to ask. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Your submission 19 yesterday. 20 MR. BAKER: Okay. 21 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. In that 22 paragraph, you indicate -- do you have it in front 23 of you? 24 MR. BAKER: Pardon me? 25 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Do you have it 06948 1 in front of you now, page 4? 2 MR. BAKER: Okay. 3 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Last paragraph. 4 MR. GRAHAM: I should point out that 5 Chris' copy is double-spaced and it may not be the 6 same page number. So I'll try and get him on the 7 right line that you're referring to. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Sure. It's the 9 one where you've got footnote 7 and footnote 8. 10 It's that paragraph. Would it help you if I gave 11 you a copy that has the same paging as I've got? 12 MR. GRAHAM: Then Chris won't be able 13 to read it. 14 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: He has a 15 different report than I do? 16 MR. BAKER: No. I'm having a hard 17 time. I need cheaters. I just haven't had the 18 time to go get some. See, mine is on page 8. 19 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Now, 20 what you indicate here, there's a couple of 21 things. First is that the principal assumption 22 that has led to this error is thinking that there 23 is one culture within the local region. And then 24 there is a footnote. And then you go down further 25 and indicate that, "The CEC is mandated to propose 06949 1 mitigation measures on adverse environmental, 2 socioeconomic and cultural effects. And the 3 consultants didn't even provide them with the 4 baseline of our culture." 5 And then what you indicate is that, 6 just above there that, "The proponent's 7 consultants wrote that our culture was the same as 8 Nisichawayasihk's." 9 And I've gone back through the 10 material since yesterday and Mr. Osler has also 11 gone back through the material, we can't find a 12 reference in the EIS that indicates anywhere that 13 the culture is the same, that it's written that 14 the culture is the same in South Indian Lake as it 15 is in Nelson House. 16 MR. GRAHAM: What the document does is 17 describes the culture that applies to the local 18 region. And it defines all the cultural 19 distinctions are not specific to Nelson House, 20 they are specific to the local region which 21 includes both communities. 22 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Is that what 23 the point is then, rather than indicating that the 24 consultants actually wrote that the culture was 25 the same? 06950 1 MR. GRAHAM: The point is that the 2 mandate of the Clean Environment Commission is to 3 determine effects on culture in part. And the 4 implication is that the culture that's described 5 in the EIS applies evenly throughout the local 6 region, which I think we have pointed out quite 7 clearly it's not the case. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. So this 9 statement that is in the report, did you write 10 this, Mr. Graham? 11 MR. GRAHAM: Yes. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So where you 13 write then that "The proponent's consultants wrote 14 that our culture was the same as 15 Nisichawayasihk's, that in fact isn't the case. 16 There's nothing in the EIS that says that, does 17 it? 18 MR. GRAHAM: Like I said, what the EIS 19 says is it describes the culture of the local 20 region and it makes a lot of -- we went over a lot 21 of this. You weren't here for our 22 cross-examination, Ms. Lemieux. 23 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I have read it, 24 though. 25 MR. GRAHAM: Yeah. And you'll note 06951 1 then that a lot of the statements that are made in 2 the EIS are generalized across a local region and 3 not specific to two separate communities that are 4 quite unique. 5 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: You are aware 6 that in the EIS, that it does describe South 7 Indian Lake, the Community of South Indian Lake 8 separately from Nelson House? 9 MR. GRAHAM: Well, it's separate in 10 that it's, you know, further down the road. It 11 describes some things. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. 13 MR. GRAHAM: It also generalizes 14 things. And I think that at least as many times 15 as it's distinguished, it's amalgamated perhaps. 16 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Just to go 17 through some of these points. Mr. Baker, you are 18 Cree? 19 MR. BAKER: I hope so. 20 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Are you Cree? 21 MR. BAKER: Yes, I am, of course. You 22 know that, Val. 23 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: As I said 24 yesterday, Chris, I have to ask you the questions 25 for the record. 06952 1 MR. BAKER: Okay. 2 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Because other 3 people may not know. 4 MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. Yes, I am Cree 5 and I'm proud. 6 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And you speak 7 the Cree language? 8 MR. BAKER: Not as well as I'd like 9 to. 10 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: But you do 11 speak Cree? 12 MR. BAKER: Yes, I do. 13 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And the Cree 14 that you speak is the same language that Chief 15 Primrose speaks; is that correct? 16 MR. BAKER: In a different dialect 17 somewhat. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: You understand 19 each other when you speak to each other in Cree? 20 MR. BAKER: Sometimes. 21 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Is it your 22 position then that there's a completely different 23 language? 24 MR. BAKER: No. There is the Cree 25 from Norway House or Cross Lake or any other 06953 1 community but there is a distinction and there 2 is -- you can identify, you can look behind, you 3 can -- as I said, ask Elvis, or excuse me, 4 Councillor Thomas. Ask him if there is a 5 distinction. He will tell you. He will verify 6 that. Anybody knows that, that's Cree. 7 MR. GRAHAM: Ms. Lemieux, in follow-up 8 to your last question with respect to the EIS and 9 what it says about culture on page 8-300, in the 10 section dealing with culture, it states, "This 11 section presents potential effects of construction 12 and operation of the proposed project on the 13 culture of residents in the local region." It 14 implies that there is one. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: What page was that? 16 MR. GRAHAM: 8-300, Volume 8. 17 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Sorry, where 18 was that? 19 MR. GRAHAM: Under the section called 20 5.2.3.5, Culture, the very first sentence. And 21 this is the section that deals with culture and 22 goes on to talk about the nine factors that the 23 consultants used to define or give them 24 indications of a culture and it specifically 25 states it's for the local region. 06954 1 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The EIS also 2 notes that for some time there's been a process in 3 place to create a separate Cree nation for 4 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin; is that correct? You're 5 familiar with that part of the EIS? 6 MR. GRAHAM: There is a couple of 7 sentences to that effect in different parts. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So that's 9 something that was taken into consideration then 10 you'd agree? 11 MR. GRAHAM: We didn't see it taken 12 into consideration when it was discussing the 13 population projections of Nisichawayasihk. They 14 go on for the next 10 or 15 years as if there will 15 be no separation. 16 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The 1995 17 Memorandum that you referred to between the 18 Governments of Canada and Manitoba, NCN and South 19 Indian Lake was to fast-track the process for 20 separation; that's correct? 21 MR. GRAHAM: The language in that MOU 22 was that the parties were to ensure that the 23 process would be in place and then it would be 24 undertaken in an expeditious manner. 25 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Expeditious 06955 1 manner. So we are now almost 10 years later and 2 it still hasn't occurred? 3 MR. GRAHAM: The parties all had that 4 responsibility and made that undertaking, 5 Nisichawayasihk, Canada, Manitoba, and each party 6 is not totally in control of what the other 7 parties do or focus on at any given point in their 8 lives. 9 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The point is 10 that we just don't know when it's going to finally 11 be concluded, do we? 12 MR. GRAHAM: Well, much has changed 13 since the '95 MOU. The '95 MOU, I am the first 14 one to say that parties haven't lived up to the 15 principles that were in there. However, the 16 current status of negotiations is way beyond where 17 they were in 1995. And Headman Baker ran through 18 where things were at and how close recognition was 19 in response to a question from the Board 20 yesterday. 21 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Right. And the 22 answer that was given was that we're on the cusp 23 of separation. So if we were going to put the 24 cusp of separation into months or years, can 25 either of you quantify like when that will take 06956 1 place? How many months or years are we away still 2 from separation? 3 MR. GRAHAM: The federal negotiator 4 gave us a commitment that it will be within one 5 year. 6 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: That commitment 7 was given when? 8 MR. GRAHAM: Last summer. 9 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And so 10 given that we are now in the middle of a federal 11 election campaign, how likely is it that that 12 commitment is going to be met? 13 MR. GRAHAM: We'd have to ask the 14 Federal Government. 15 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Is it your 16 expectation that the separation will be concluded 17 within the next two months? 18 MR. GRAHAM: It would depend how we 19 make out with the Nisichawayasihk/O-Pipon-Na-Piwin 20 Separation Agreement. 21 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And what about 22 with the Federal and Provincial Governments? 23 MR. GRAHAM: Those negotiations are 24 underway. As we referenced yesterday, the Federal 25 Government is sending a team of 15 engineers into 06957 1 South Indian Lake in the first week of June, which 2 is essentially next week. This project is paid 3 for by Indian Affairs. They pay Public Works 4 Canada for this service. It's going to cost them 5 a quarter of a million dollars. And I think 6 that's a sign of some commitment that this is 7 going to move forward. But I know that Canada 8 will not move forward until the 9 Nisichawayasihk/O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Separation 10 Agreement is signed. And I think we need to get 11 on with that. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. I just 13 want to go back to a question that I asked 14 yesterday that I did not get an answer to. And 15 I'd like to know, Chris, if it's your position 16 then that with the separation being imminent on 17 the basis of what you've just told us, that NCN 18 members who are part of O-Pipon-Na-Piwin, as it 19 currently exists, should not participate in the 20 ratification vote NCN will hold for the PDA? 21 MR. BAKER: I didn't say that. 22 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: You didn't 23 answer the question yesterday so I'm raising the 24 question again. I'd like an answer to the 25 question. 06958 1 MR. BAKER: Well, Valerie, in your 2 legal mind, you know as well as I do and I don't 3 practice law, but I'm sure -- I know you do. When 4 we are -- until the separation happens as well as 5 anybody knows in this room, the membership are 6 still entitled to whatever. If it may be voting, 7 if it may be whatever. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And I 9 want to make sure that the Commission, that we are 10 very clear on this. So your position is that you 11 don't recognize Chief and Council as being the 12 leadership for the NCN members at South Indian 13 Lake. And on the other hand, the members who are 14 living at South Indian Lake, NCN members who are 15 living at South Indian Lake would still be 16 entitled to vote on the PDA. Is that what you're 17 telling us? 18 MR. BAKER: Well, I think the question 19 of membership is complicated. I think it is clear 20 that all NCN members have legal rights and 21 interests that will not be modified until there is 22 a formal separation agreement between us. That's 23 my answer. 24 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Bottom 25 line is that if a separation doesn't occur before 06959 1 the PDA is ratified, you would expect that the 2 members living at South Indian Lake will vote on 3 the agreement; is that your position? 4 MR. BAKER: I've already given you my 5 answer, Valerie. 6 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: It's a fairly 7 simple question and -- 8 MR. BAKER: If you go to your left 9 again and ask Councillor Thomas and what he said, 10 maybe he will be prepared to answer that. And if 11 I recall right in his, I can't remember which 12 transcript it is, but he guaranteed and so did 13 Manitoba Hydro that all memberships will vote. 14 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So as long as 15 the members, NCN members at South Indian Lake are 16 still on the NCN membership list, they will be 17 entitled to vote on the PDA. Is that your 18 position? 19 MR. BAKER: I think that's an 20 individual right to vote. 21 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Now, in 22 terms of the separation, you also indicated 23 yesterday in response to a question from Mr. 24 Mayer, that there would be some mechanism for NCN 25 members at South Indian Lake to choose whether to 06960 1 remain as NCN members or whether they will become 2 members or want to become members of the new First 3 Nation. Can you tell us whether in fact that's 4 going to require a separate referendum? 5 MR. BAKER: Can you repeat that? 6 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Will there have 7 to be a referendum, Chris, so people can choose 8 whether they will remain members of NCN or whether 9 they are going to be members of the new 10 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Nation? 11 MR. GRAHAM: The requirements for 12 separation of a group of people from a First 13 Nation to form a separate First Nation, it's 14 governed by the Indian Act. And the Indian Act 15 has no legal requirement for a vote. It gives 16 sole discretion to the Minister of Indian Affairs. 17 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And generally, 18 the policy followed by the Minister of Indian 19 Affairs is a vote; is that not true? 20 MR. GRAHAM: Sometimes. The Minister 21 only has to be satisfied that the parties 22 understand what assets are being divided. 23 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. So if, 24 and I'm just following up on Mr. Baker's testimony 25 yesterday, if members are going to be allowed to 06961 1 remain as NCN members, which I understood was his 2 evidence in response to a question from Mr. Mayer, 3 how are they going to be able to choose? 4 MR. GRAHAM: Choose what? 5 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Whether to 6 remain an NCN member or become a member of the new 7 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation? 8 MR. GRAHAM: Well, I think a major 9 requirement for people to make an informed 10 decision is the conclusion of the 11 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin/Nisichawayasihk Separation 12 Agreement. It's only then that people will have a 13 clear understanding of what it is that the 14 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin people will be taking with them. 15 MR. MAYER: Excuse me, I thought 16 yesterday, actually I heard yesterday, Mr. Baker 17 indicated that he had signed a Letter of Intent. 18 MR. BAKER: Um-hum. 19 MR. MAYER: And I'm assuming you were 20 responding to Ms. Matthews Lemieux's question 21 about something and you had indicated that you had 22 signed a Letter of Intent. I assumed from the way 23 you said it that that was a Letter of Intent 24 indicating your desire to join the new First 25 Nation and to leave NCN; is that correct? 06962 1 MR. BAKER: That's right. 2 MR. MAYER: And with whom did you sign 3 that Letter of Intent? Who has the letter? 4 MR. BAKER: It's a Letter of Intention 5 right from the Indian Act policy. If you look 6 within part of additions to reserves, part of that 7 process is, one of the steps is to have a Letter 8 of Intention of what you are intending to do. 9 MR. MAYER: This Letter of Intent, is 10 it signed individually by each person who wishes 11 to become part of OPCN or is it signed by a couple 12 of people on behalf of a group of people who wish 13 to separate. Can you clarify that for me? 14 MR. GRAHAM: I can clarify that, sir. 15 When the Minister makes a decision to recognize a 16 new First Nation, he creates a Band list. He's 17 got to know who's in the Band. These are normally 18 done through individual executions of documents 19 entitled Statements of Intention. And they are 20 drafted by Indian Affairs. They are included in 21 their policy. And what process is under way is 22 approaching people to execute Statements of 23 Intention to indicate and confirm their intention 24 to transfer their membership upon recognition and 25 to be on the new Band list. 06963 1 MR. MAYER: And who gathers those 2 letters? 3 MR. GRAHAM: In the past, the party 4 that is separating presents them. 5 MR. MAYER: Okay. Then this is going 6 to make -- I was trying to determine yesterday 7 exactly who OPCN members were as opposed to which 8 ones would probably remain NCN members. It seems 9 to me then that the easiest way to make that 10 determination is to determine how many Letters of 11 Intent have been signed. Can you give me that 12 answer? 13 MR. GRAHAM: Well, that's a -- you 14 know, when we're all done, we'll have an answer. 15 But of course, people need to make informed 16 decisions. And right now, there's an outstanding 17 Separation Agreement and there is no commitment 18 from Nisichawayasihk to separate the land or any 19 aspect of -- 20 MR. MAYER: I under -- 21 MR. GRAHAM: So, it's hard for people 22 to sign Statements of Intention. 23 MR. MAYER: I understand that, sir. 24 That isn't what I asked. We know that Mr. Baker 25 has signed one. How many other people, to this 06964 1 point in time, have indicated by such a Letter of 2 Intent that they intend to leave NCN and go to 3 OPCN? 4 MR. GRAHAM: Some people have been 5 willing -- like it's a clear response for them 6 because they don't need to see the results of the 7 separation of assets in the land. 8 MR. MAYER: That isn't answering the 9 question. 10 MR. GRAHAM: Currently, to the best of 11 my knowledge, there's 563. 12 MR. MAYER: Thank you. At least we 13 know there are 563 people who have indicated that 14 that's where they want to be. I'm not -- I 15 understand the process is still going on. But at 16 least we know that there is at least a significant 17 group of people who have indicated their 18 intention, even though they haven't seen the 19 Separation Agreement. 20 MR. BAKER: I just want to add onto 21 that, Mr. Mayer, and that is a very good question 22 and I'm glad you brought it out. 23 MR. MAYER: I wish it hadn't taken so 24 long. 25 MR. BAKER: According to my memory, in 06965 1 my community in South Indian Lake, this has been 2 an ongoing issue ever since the time of Treaty. 3 And we have had -- I'm pretty sure we've had two 4 referendum votes within our community. One was I 5 think in -- I think it was in about 1950-something 6 and then we had one more recently in 2002 when the 7 Regional Director General, at the time, Mr. Lorne 8 Cochrane, along with the Associate Director 9 General, Mary Blais, requested certain things to 10 proceed with the separation. And one of the 11 requirements was to ask the people that were NCN 12 Band members in South Indian Lake for a referendum 13 vote. And there was at the time 394 eligible 14 voters. 15 We proceeded with a ballot and we 16 proceeded with the request of the department. 17 There was 293 people that said yes. There were 18 four people that said no and I think there was one 19 ballot that was spoiled. That is the most recent 20 referendum vote within my community. 21 MR. MAYER: Okay. Now I'm confused. 22 The eligible voters are significantly less than 23 the 563 Letters of Intent. How -- 24 MR. GRAHAM: They are not all eligible 25 voters. Those are 563 members. And because 06966 1 obviously some are minors and the parents sign on 2 their behalf. 3 MR. MAYER: I see, okay. 4 MR. GRAHAM: All the members, you 5 know, as soon as people are born, have to be on 6 one list or the other. 7 MR. MAYER: I see. So then the number 8 of eligible voters again was? 9 MR. BAKER: I think now, presently if 10 I recall right, there's about, I'll guess at this, 11 400, maybe 420, 430 voters, eligible voters in 12 South Indian Lake. 13 MR. MAYER: And the last referendum 14 was how many eligible voters? You did quote it, I 15 just forgot. 16 MR. BAKER: 394 if I remember right. 17 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Just on that 18 last number, the 420 to 430, can you clarify 19 whether that's just NCN members or whether that 20 includes NCN members and others? 21 MR. BAKER: Just NCN members. 22 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So those are 23 only NCN members? 24 MR. BAKER: That's the adults that can 25 vote, 18 and up. 06967 1 MR. GRAHAM: I should also clarify 2 that the Statements of Intention that had been 3 gathered to date have been gathered within the 4 Community of South Indian Lake. But of course 5 when you divide a Band, the membership of 6 Nisichawayasihk lives everywhere. And when you 7 divide the people that call South Indian Lake home 8 live everywhere. And they too will be presented 9 with an option of transferring membership. And we 10 haven't approached those people yet. This is just 11 numbers of people from the community. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Mr. Graham, 13 over what period of time have the Letters of 14 Intent been obtained? 15 MR. GRAHAM: Since approximately 16 Christmas. 17 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Of what year? 18 MR. GRAHAM: This year. Well, of this 19 past Christmas. 20 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So at the time 21 the EIS was done then, it was filed in April of 22 2003. So these steps have been taken long after 23 the EIS was filed? 24 MR. BAKER: I mean in your surveys, 25 Val, even in your survey that was done in December 06968 1 2001 -- 2 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: From what I 3 understand -- 4 MR. BAKER: I mean the survey that the 5 consultants done was done in 2001. And your 6 results on basic -- on the socioeconomic aspects 7 of that EIS, your conclusion was, what, in 2003 I 8 think. 9 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So it's 10 December 2003 that you started gathering the 11 Letters of Intent? 12 MR. GRAHAM: Approximately. 13 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And none of 14 those Letters of Intent have been provided to 15 Chief and Council; is that correct? 16 MR. GRAHAM: That's correct. Some 17 people are quite concerned about that. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: You mentioned 19 that there's been a referendum among the members 20 in South Indian Lake on the separation issue. 21 There's been no similar referendum among the NCN 22 members living at Nelson House or who would claim 23 Nelson House as home, has there? 24 MR. BAKER: Because, Val, if I 25 remember right, there was one in 1960. 06969 1 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Since -- 2 MR. BAKER: There was one in 1960. 3 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Since 1995? 4 MR. BAKER: No. 5 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: When the MOU 6 was signed, there was not? 7 MR. BAKER: You asked me if there was 8 a referendum vote in Nelson House. 9 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. 10 MR. BAKER: And anybody that's old 11 enough -- I'm not old enough, I wasn't around in 12 1960. 13 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I apologize. 14 Since 1995 there has not been a referendum? 15 MR. BAKER: But I do know in fact that 16 there has been a vote in 1960. 17 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. 18 MR. BAKER: Right at Nelson House. 19 MR. GRAHAM: Again, I would take the 20 position that I don't think people have enough 21 information in Nelson House to -- if they don't 22 know what opting for membership in 23 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin means to them, how can they 24 decide? And that in a big way relates to the 25 Nisichawayasihk/O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Separation 06970 1 Agreement that's outstanding. 2 MR. BAKER: And if I can just add onto 3 that. You know as well as I do, and so does 4 Councillor Thomas, that we've been discussing this 5 and we have agreed to -- I mean this is like 6 negotiating my life here and putting it here and I 7 don't think it's right and proper. I don't see 8 the scope of this that's related to what we're 9 talking about here, Mr. Chairman. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Frankly I don't either, 11 most of it. 12 MR. BAKER: And I don't believe that 13 Mrs. Lemieux should be allowed to ask me these 14 kind of questions that are not pertaining to what 15 we're talking about right now. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: You're the one 17 answering the questions. 18 MR. BAKER: Okay. Then, Mrs. Lemieux, 19 with due respect, I won't answer your question 20 unless it's in regards to the issue that we're 21 talking about right now. 22 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Part of the 23 problem that my client is faced in -- 24 MR. BAKER: I am one of your clients, 25 too. 06971 1 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: As an NCN 2 member. 3 MR. BAKER: That's correct. 4 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. 5 MR. BAKER: Don't forget. 6 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I won't. 7 MR. BAKER: Thank you. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: In terms of -- 9 MR. BAKER: It's not only for Chief 10 and Council, Councillor. I believe and I strongly 11 believe that the Chief and Council protect the 12 interests, the rights of all members, not only the 13 Chief and Council. I have rights and I have 14 interests just as any other member in that Band 15 right now. Until that day comes, councillor, then 16 Mrs. Lemieux can rightfully say what she just 17 said. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Mr. 19 Baker, just so we can try and go through the rest 20 of the questions so it's not difficult for either 21 you or I, I'm just going to ask you some very 22 specific questions. 23 In your capacity as Headman, you 24 requested that there be the addition of 25 consultants from South Indian Lake, is that 06972 1 correct, to deal with the Wuskwatim Future 2 Development Project? 3 MR. BAKER: I'll elaborate on that a 4 little? No? 5 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I mean I'm just 6 asking you if you asked to have -- 7 MR. BAKER: Technically, yes. But 8 what happened was -- let's see, when was that, in 9 2000? 2001 I think. I came here to Winnipeg at 10 the Marlborough where you guys were having 11 gatherings. I approached Mr. Ryan and I 12 proceeded, and I also approached you that evening, 13 and I also approached Councillor Thomas and other 14 council members and requested that they should, by 15 right, have equal participation as much as Nelson 16 House were to have. And also that there were two 17 consultants that were hired. But when I -- in 18 most of the meetings that I went to in my request 19 at the time in all of the meetings that I have 20 attended, and that's not very many, was that I 21 brought concerns to the Chief and Council and also 22 to the consultants at the time in Manitoba Hydro 23 that they hired, what, 20 to 30 people in Nelson 24 House and they hired, what, two consultants in 25 South Indian Lake. And if I recall right, that 06973 1 was a decision made by the Chief and Council. 2 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The two 3 community consultants hired from South Indian Lake 4 worked as part of the NCN Future Development Team, 5 correct? 6 MR. BAKER: Let me recall. Let me 7 think. That was what? 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The question 9 that I've asked you is to confirm that the two 10 people who were hired as community consultants 11 from South Indian Lake participated in the NCN 12 Future Development Process, correct? 13 MR. BAKER: Yes. 14 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Thank you. 15 Now, I'd like to just go on to the issue of 16 employment and training. Do you recall at the 17 time prior to or the time of the Agreement in 18 Principle that the initial proposal was that there 19 would be a preference just for NCN members who 20 lived in the resource management area. Do you 21 remember that? 22 MR. BAKER: Their Agreement in 23 Principle? 24 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Yes, back at 25 that time when we were discussing -- 06974 1 MR. BAKER: I wasn't part of the 2 Agreement in Principle. I wasn't in the 3 discussions of that. I didn't attend those. 4 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: You were in 5 attendance at a meeting in South Indian Lake at 6 the community hall? 7 MR. BAKER: But we didn't talk about 8 the Agreement in Principle there. 9 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: We talked about 10 employment and training and the preference. 11 MR. BAKER: No. What happened, if I 12 remember right, is that we came there to sell the 13 idea. 14 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Mr. 15 Baker, do you recall that when discussions were -- 16 MR. BAKER: And that was only one 17 meeting that I remember. I think they brought 18 some -- 19 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Can we 20 just stick to my question and then you'll be done 21 sooner and so will I and the Commission will thank 22 us both. 23 In terms of the issue of preference 24 for employment and training, do you recall that an 25 early proposal was that there would only be a 06975 1 preference for NCN members living within the 2 Resource Management Area which would have excluded 3 the members from South Indian Lake? Do you recall 4 that? 5 MR. BAKER: No, but I do recall that 6 in Section 8 of the Agreement, that Comprehensive 7 Agreement, that it says all members will be 8 included in any future Hydro developments. 9 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Do you recall 10 that changes were made to the preference proposals 11 as a result of input from the members in South 12 Indian Lake? 13 MR. BAKER: Like I don't remember, no. 14 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: You don't 15 remember that, okay. Do you recall that there was 16 further input from other First Nations so that the 17 preference was expanded again beyond just NCN 18 members? 19 MR. BAKER: To the four Bands that 20 were adversely directly affected from I guess the 21 past, that was a decision made by I think Manitoba 22 and Canada and HRDC and I don't know who else. 23 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: But in terms of 24 -- 25 MR. BAKER: I think there was about, 06976 1 what, approximately $60 million that was supposed 2 to be divided to that person and 75 per cent of 3 that would go directly to the four Bands. 4 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I'm not talking 5 about the training. 6 MR. BAKER: But that was what it's all 7 about. That money was for training. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The issue I'm 9 talking about is the preference in the BNA, the 10 Burntwood Nelson Collective Agreement? 11 MR. BAKER: I wasn't part of that, 12 Valerie. 13 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: You're 14 familiar, though, with the proposals that NCN was 15 putting forward on those issues? 16 MR. BAKER: As I said, I wasn't in 17 attendance. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So you don't 19 recall any of the changes over time then in terms 20 of those proposals on preference? 21 MR. BAKER: But you have to remember 22 sometimes I was not allowed to come to those 23 meetings because of confidentiality reasons. 24 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Chris, 25 based on the reports that you received, can you 06977 1 confirm that there were changes over time in the 2 position on the preference? 3 MR. BAKER: I know that the Chief and 4 Council's preference was just for NCN members, but 5 I mean you can't do that. They didn't allow them 6 to do that. But the preference, yes, was for NCN 7 Band members. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And you don't 9 recall whether there was input from the members 10 living at South Indian Lake or not, Mr. Baker? 11 MR. BAKER: Well, the government 12 forced NCN to expand that. 13 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: As far as I 14 know, the governments weren't involved at all in 15 the discussions, but -- 16 MR. BAKER: But the money came from 17 there. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: We're not 19 talking about the training money, we're talking 20 about the employment preference. 21 MR. BAKER: The employment preference, 22 like I don't know if I was part of that either. 23 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: In terms of the 24 training monies, NCN has registered members at 25 South Indian Lake and had their skill levels 06978 1 assessed; is that correct? 2 MR. BAKER: Yes. 3 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. There's 4 a South Indian Lake Training and Employment Office 5 that has been established by NCN at South Indian 6 Lake; is that correct? 7 MR. BAKER: Okay. Be more specific 8 on -- 9 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. You know 10 what the ATEC Centre is, correct? 11 MR. BAKER: Yes, I do. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And the ATEC 13 Centre has been offering training programs in 14 South Indian Lake at the request of members in 15 South Indian Lake; is that correct? 16 MR. BAKER: There are -- yeah, there's 17 upgrading there. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And 19 those are offered through ATEC? 20 MR. BAKER: Through Frontier, there's 21 a three-party agreement because we didn't -- what 22 we talked about was, and I went and you know I was 23 there to push the issue, and I said you can't 24 expect my people to go somewhere else and we know 25 the results of what happens when First Nations 06979 1 people go and they are not accustomed to leaving 2 their community. And my argument was that if we 3 based it in South Indian Lake in the community, 4 the success rate would be more. 5 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And what 6 we were talking about is whether people from South 7 Indian Lake would come to Nelson House or whether 8 in fact the programs would be offered in South 9 Indian Lake, right? 10 MR. BAKER: What's that? 11 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: What we were 12 talking about was whether programs would be 13 offered in Nelson House or in South Indian Lake, 14 right? 15 MR. BAKER: Well, the programs 16 could -- I mean they still can't be offered there 17 because the ATEC Centre is not complete yet. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: But there are 19 programs being offered in South Indian Lake? 20 MR. BAKER: Upgrading. 21 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. And 22 there's a graduation in fact of that Adult Ed. 23 program that's coming up in June of this year, 24 correct? 25 MR. BAKER: Along with the Adult 06980 1 Education, yes. 2 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And NCN has 3 been helping to ensure that those programs took 4 place in South Indian Lake, right? 5 MR. BAKER: Yes. 6 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Thank you. 7 Now, you also, as Headman, raised a concern with 8 Chief and Council and the future development 9 advisors that there was no future development 10 process similar to Article 8 of the 1992 11 agreement, right? 12 MR. BAKER: Yes. 13 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And Chief and 14 Council and its advisors helped you to obtain a 15 commitment letter from Manitoba Hydro for 16 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin upon its establishment; is that 17 correct? 18 MR. BAKER: Is that that letter you 19 attached on the -- 20 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The letter 21 signed by Ruth Christianson (ph), et cetera, that 22 indicated that once -- 23 MR. BAKER: Oh, Mr. Wojczynski. 24 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Yes. 25 MR. BAKER: Upon recognition. 06981 1 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: That's right. 2 Upon recognition. In other words, once 3 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation is established, then 4 the letter sets out that it would have the 5 procedures, planning procedures that would be 6 similar to Article 8; is that correct? 7 MR. BAKER: I don't know if it's -- I 8 would have to pull that letter out and take a 9 reference to it. I can't really recall what it 10 states. I do know, if I recall right, it's -- 11 MR. MAYER: Excuse me. Rather than 12 guessing about this, is somebody going to put this 13 letter in? 14 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: We'll put the 15 letter in. 16 MR. MAYER: It will make it a lot 17 easier. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Unfortunately I 19 don't have it with me right now but I will get it 20 and we'll put it in. 21 MR. BAKER: That's right. They agreed 22 to discuss it but there were no commitments. 23 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. 24 MR. BAKER: I mean we've been trying 25 to -- if you look at the history of since I've 06982 1 been elected anyway, I've written letters and I've 2 requested meetings and I have had meetings with 3 Mr. Brennan, the CEO, the President of Hydro, not 4 only by myself but I've also had meetings with the 5 former Minister, Eric Robinson. I've had requests 6 and I've -- and Mr. Schroeder was there, Victor, 7 and so was Dave Chadman (ph). I met with Minister 8 Lathlin. I've met with Deputy Minister Bostrom in 9 requesting full participation for my community and 10 recognition that we may have potential effects 11 from any future Hydro development projects. 12 I mean, if you look at the history of 13 my community, we've always requested and wanted to 14 go sit down with Manitoba Hydro and try and 15 develop a, I don't know if you want to call it a 16 relationship, but maybe an alliance and an 17 understanding. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. I do 19 have the letter in front of me now. It's a letter 20 that is sent from Manitoba Hydro to Chief Primrose 21 dated January 29, 2004. And this letter, which we 22 will file shortly, is the one that sets out what 23 Manitoba Hydro would be prepared to do in this 24 area in terms of negotiating final arrangements 25 with O-Pipon-Na-Piwin if and when it receives Band 06983 1 status under the Indian Act. And this is 2 something that I put to you that Chief Primrose 3 and his council helped you to achieve? 4 MR. BAKER: I don't know that, Val. 5 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. We'll 6 file a copy of the letter. Are you familiar 7 with -- 8 MR. BAKER: I would just like to add 9 just for the record, it's depending on what a lot 10 of things, like recognition, developing a 11 relationship with Manitoba Hydro, with a lot of 12 people and it all depends on what separation -- 13 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I'm just 14 referring to the fact that on page 1, paragraph 4 15 of your presentation yesterday, and you have it 16 underlined, last sentence in that paragraph says, 17 "The O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation do not yet have 18 a similar arrangement with Manitoba Hydro 19 respecting future Hydro developments." And for 20 the record, we want to clarify that in fact there 21 had been discussions going on and that NCN Chief 22 and Council have been assisting you in terms of 23 trying to achieve some of those arrangements? 24 MR. BAKER: But I don't know that, 25 Val. 06984 1 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. Well, 2 there is a letter and we will file the letter. 3 And your counsel, Mr. Kelsch, was provided with a 4 copy of it. 5 MR. BAKER: You know, I've written how 6 many letters. I've requested how many times. 7 I've written letters from as early as October 8 2001, March 25th, 2002. I haven't had responses 9 from Mr. Brennan. You know, and he did commit a 10 response but it didn't come forward. 11 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: One of the 12 difficulties has been, of course, that the status 13 of the separation arrangements are up in the air? 14 MR. BAKER: But I mean it doesn't -- 15 the point is, in my heart anyway and from my point 16 of view, that we are still people. And people 17 must respect us and they must address us. Canada 18 has a fiduciary obligation to us through our 19 Treaty rights, that we have those rights and they 20 extend, yeah, maybe to the Band membership and 21 NCN. But I tell you this, Valerie, it was not our 22 choice to be NCN members. And I don't hold no 23 disrespect to NCN. It was the white man at the 24 beginning of Treaty that put us together. And 25 what we're trying to do is to try to unravel that 06985 1 mess that we were subject to. 2 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I'm not taking 3 any issue with the aspirations, Chris. 4 MR. BAKER: It's not an aspiration, 5 it's a fact. 6 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: But I'm not 7 taking any issue with that whatsoever. 8 MR. BAKER: You were asking me some 9 questions. But there is a history here, a history 10 that needs to be told, a history that needs to be 11 fixed. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay, Chris. 13 MR. BAKER: You know. 14 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I am just 15 trying to ask you questions that arise out of your 16 report. 17 MR. BAKER: Yeah. 18 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So maybe I 19 could move on to page 12 of the report, at least 20 it's page 12 on my copy of the report. Okay. On 21 my copy, if we went to the third paragraph up from 22 the bottom where it refers to the 1992 Settlement 23 Agreement. 24 MR. GRAHAM: What page? 25 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Twelve on my 06986 1 copy. 2 MR. BAKER: I've just got to find it, 3 Val. 4 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: That's okay, 5 sure. Take your time. 6 MR. BAKER: Okay, I have it. 7 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The question I 8 have for you about the 1992 Settlement Agreement 9 that's listed there, I just want to confirm that 10 NCN members living at Nelson House and elsewhere 11 did not vote on that agreement; is that correct? 12 MR. BAKER: I think you have to remind 13 yourself, the only people that had legal interest 14 in that agreement were the only ones that voted. 15 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Okay. So the 16 answer to my question is what, no? 17 MR. BAKER: As I said, the people that 18 were with CASIL were the ones that voted that had 19 legal interest in it. I mean if you want me to 20 get into the detail of the history of that 21 negotiation, Valerie, I surely will. 22 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: No, I don't. 23 My question is just really simple. 24 MR. BAKER: If you really want to get 25 into it, I don't mind. 06987 1 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The question is 2 really simple. All I want to know -- 3 MR. BAKER: It's not simple. 4 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: For the record, 5 NCN members living at Nelson House and elsewhere 6 did not vote on that agreement, correct? 7 MR. BAKER: Well, you have to 8 remember, too, that NCN membership -- 9 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Chris, it's yes 10 or no. 11 MR. BAKER: -- at Nelson House had no 12 rights on that, to vote on. 13 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The answer is 14 either yes they voted, or no they didn't. So 15 which one is it? 16 MR. BAKER: It doesn't -- it can't be 17 yes or no because there were too many -- like 18 there were so many different people in that that 19 were involved in that 1992 agreement in South 20 Indian Lake. It can't be yes or no. It's not a 21 closed question. 22 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So did NCN 23 members living at Nelson House vote on that 24 agreement? 25 MR. BAKER: It depends. There were 06988 1 some people from South Indian Lake that live in 2 Nelson House. There are people from Nelson House 3 that live in South Indian Lake. 4 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: So what you're 5 saying is if you were a member of CASIL and you 6 lived in Nelson House or elsewhere, then you 7 voted? 8 MR. BAKER: I think that those 9 questions should be, you know, directed at CASIL. 10 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: You are a 11 member of CASIL you told us yesterday. 12 MR. BAKER: I'm a member of NCN, too. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Baker, I think you 14 can make a more ready attempt to answer this 15 question. 16 MR. BAKER: Well -- 17 THE CHAIRMAN: If you want to qualify 18 it -- 19 MR. BAKER: I'll qualify it. I think 20 with no disrespect meant or anything, I don't 21 know -- I don't think that Nelson House people had 22 any interest in that. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Did they vote? 24 MR. BAKER: They shouldn't have voted. 25 No, they didn't vote. She knows that. 06989 1 MR. MAYER: Why didn't you answer that 2 15 minutes ago when you were first asked the 3 question? 4 MR. BAKER: Because I don't know where 5 she's trying to lead me. But if she would just 6 get to the point maybe I'll say yes or no instead 7 of playing these, you know, games with me. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I tried to ask 9 the question very succinctly and we now do, with 10 the Commission's assistance, have the answer to 11 that question. 12 What I would like to do at this point 13 I think is to say thank you to the panel for being 14 very patient. And I would also like to say thank 15 you to Mr. Baker because I certainly have always 16 had respect for him and this has been a difficult 17 process for all of us. 18 MR. BAKER: Thank you. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: There were a number of 20 hypothetical questions asked. I will ask my own 21 here. Mr. Baker, if this project goes through, is 22 it your understanding that the NCN members of 23 South Indian Lake will be getting some of the 24 benefit? Yes or no? 25 MR. BAKER: No. 06990 1 THE CHAIRMAN: That you won't. 2 Assuming that this project goes through again, and 3 at that point you were a separate entity, separate 4 Band that has reached its full status, do you 5 believe that the NCN members of South Indian Lake 6 would be getting the benefits of this project? 7 Yes or no? 8 MR. BAKER: I guess it depends on the 9 Separation Agreement. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: We've heard some -- 11 MR. BAKER: It's in negotiations. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: We've been listening to 13 some hypothetical things. 14 MR. BAKER: That's a hypothetical. 15 And I don't mean no disrespect, Mr. Chairman, but 16 you can't ask me a hypothetical question that I 17 don't know anything about. I mean I can say -- 18 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm asking you whether 19 you think you might -- if such a situation were to 20 arise, whether you think you would be getting a 21 portion of the benefits or not. 22 MR. BAKER: I would think that the NCN 23 Chief and Council would prefer to, you know, keep 24 it within their own community. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 06991 1 MR. BAKER: That's what I would do if 2 I was Chief and Council. I mean anybody would do 3 that. You can't ask me that. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: If your Band at South 5 Indian Lake, OPCN, was currently or had been, for 6 a number of years, a full-fledged Band -- 7 MR. BAKER: Since Treaty? 8 THE CHAIRMAN: No, if it had been, I 9 don't know, for the last five years, if that issue 10 had all been resolved, one of the things that 11 you're saying is history shows that over time, 12 you've been recognized in a certain way as a 13 separate entity but you haven't reached a point 14 where this has been legally finalized by Canada, 15 by Manitoba, et cetera. But assuming that you had 16 that status now, do you think your Band would be 17 involved in negotiations with Hydro or perhaps 18 even involved as a partner with Hydro in this 19 project? 20 MR. BAKER: I would have -- it would 21 have been our preference to be formally 22 recognized, you know, by this time and then I 23 wouldn't be here. I would -- I mean, Mr. 24 Chairman, I can give you stories and I can tell 25 you in detail of what my people go through and how 06992 1 they suffer. I mean I can sit here all day, if 2 you had the time, to honestly answer that. I 3 would sit with Hydro, I'd sit with Manitoba, I'd 4 sit with Canada to express how I really feel. But 5 I tell you this. If Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba 6 and Canada chose to deal with our people correctly 7 and fairly, then that's good. But until that day 8 comes, I don't know if any First Nation that has 9 been affected by any Hydro project can honestly 10 say yes, I'll embrace Hydro. But if our people 11 can and any First Nation, I say that for any 12 community, and I support them. If there is good 13 to come out of it, then I support them 110 per 14 cent. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: You've stated in your 16 document that, and I believe you were referencing 17 the augmented flow issue, you were saying, well, 18 this is producing 10 per cent additional 19 electricity or will produce 10 per cent more 20 electricity in part of that project than it would 21 otherwise, and that you're not going to get any of 22 the benefit. And that's why I was asking you 23 whether you thought that the NCN members of South 24 Indian Lake were entitled to a portion of the 25 benefits. 06993 1 When you say we're not getting any of 2 the benefits, are you saying that you expect that 3 you will not get, as NCN members, a portion of the 4 profits from this project? Is that your belief? 5 MR. BAKER: Yes. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: And that's why I asked 7 you afterwards when you answered that -- 8 MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman, this is my 9 point of view, I mean my own personal point of 10 view. And it's not 10 per cent, it's about, what, 11 8.6. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, whatever. 13 MR. BAKER: 8.6 per cent on Augmented 14 Flow Program. If Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba 15 would come to their, how do I say that kindly, and 16 understand the adverse effects that has been 17 created and imposed on the First Nations people, 18 and they use some of that money to maybe correct 19 some of the mistakes that have been -- that have 20 happened, I would think that the relationships 21 between First Nations and Manitoba and Manitoba 22 Hydro would be true when they say yes, we are 23 trying to develop relationships between the First 24 Nations in this particular province. Yeah, I 25 would agree. 06994 1 If they would take that money and do 2 some sort of restitution, if you want to call it 3 that, but you can't destroy a person's life and 4 expect them to embrace you and say I believe in 5 everything that you do. You can't expect me to do 6 that. My heart is heavy. 7 Because that's my -- that's my uncle 8 over there, councillor. Valerie is supposed to be 9 representing me as an NCN Band member. My sister 10 is back there. She's a councillor. What has 11 become of this? You pit us against each other. 12 Is that fair? I don't think so. 13 What South Indian Lake wants, there 14 are seven points at the end of our presentation of 15 what we request. I don't want to fight. I don't 16 want to fight. I want to go on. I want to help 17 my people. I want them to become strong. They 18 are strong, you live through what we live through, 19 you won't find no stronger people. 20 I've asked the governments to come to 21 my community. I have expressed in my presentation 22 to come and see harmless energy in production. 23 Come and see it. I invite you, Mr. Chairman, come 24 and see it. I would like to see Valerie Matthews 25 Lemieux, Cam Osler, Mr. Bedford, Mr. Wojczynski, 06995 1 Mr. Brennan, anybody to come and live in the 2 houses that they gave to our people. Come there 3 and live there for a year like we do. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Baker. That 5 is a long answer to a short question. 6 You stated in your report, the 7 Augmented Flow Program that the people of South 8 Indian Lake accepted when we signed a 1992 9 Settlement Agreement contains two very important 10 conditions for my people, and then you name them. 11 One, Manitoba Hydro fully mitigate any effects of 12 the altered levels and flows. And two, that the 13 maximum drawdown from South Indian Lake of 4.5 14 feet be staged over a period of time in such a 15 manner as to minimize adverse impacts on South 16 Indian Lake residents. And then you state there 17 should be a comprehensive plan in regards to 18 mitigation of these adverse effects. You say we 19 believe consultation with our members should be an 20 integral component of fully mitigating these 21 effects. Then you say we have not seen any such 22 plan and we haven't been involved in these 23 mitigation effects. Is that correct? Do you 24 maintain that? 25 MR. BAKER: Yes. 06996 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Other 2 questions? Yes? 3 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I'm almost a 4 little reluctant to ask any more questions. 5 MR. BAKER: Then don't ask. 6 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I do want to 7 ask one, about the '95 MOU and the BCR. Can you 8 confirm for the Commission that the arrangement in 9 1995 was that the new South Indian Lake First 10 Nation, we didn't have a name for it at that time, 11 which is now O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation, would 12 keep all of the proceeds it received under the 13 1992 Agreement and that NCN, separated NCN 14 would -- 15 MR. BAKER: The last meeting that we 16 attended, Valerie, you wanted to review that. 17 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Chris, I just 18 want to confirm the terms of that for the record. 19 So in 1995, what the MOU and the BCR indicated was 20 that South Indian Lake separate Band would keep 21 its proceeds from the '92 Agreement and NCN 22 separate Band would keep all of the proceeds from 23 the '96 Agreement; is that correct? 24 MR. MAYER: Ms. Lemieux, that 25 agreement is a matter of record; is it not? 06997 1 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: It hasn't been 2 actually filed. It was filed in the motion. 3 MR. MAYER: I recall reading it. 4 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: If it is on the 5 record as part of -- it is in the CASIL motion and 6 as long as it's in these proceedings, not just in 7 that motion, then that's fine. 8 MR. BAKER: Yes, yes. 9 MR. MAYER: I think it should be 10 because it has been referred to. And I personally 11 am aware of having read the provisions which you 12 just put to Mr. Baker. 13 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: And that would 14 be great as long as we can ensure that it is 15 marked, because as far as I know, it was just in 16 that one motion. And I don't think it was marked 17 as an exhibit. 18 MR. BAKER: The answer to your 19 question, Valerie, is yes. 20 MR. ABRA: It has been marked in these 21 proceedings. 22 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: He's also 23 answered the question. 24 MR. MAYER: We just solved the 25 problem. 06998 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Anymore questions, Ms. 2 Matthews Lemieux? 3 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: No. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We will 5 adjourn for a break. 6 MR. GREWAR: And just so that we're 7 clear on the record, the correspondence that was 8 tendered as correspondence from Manitoba Hydro, Ed 9 Wojczynski to Chief Primrose dated 2004, January 10 29th, would be entered as MH/NCN-1046. And we'll 11 retrieve the agreement that was mentioned a moment 12 ago and assign it an exhibit number when we 13 return. 14 (EXHIBIT MH/NCN-1046: Correspondence 15 from Manitoba Hydro, Ed Wojczynski to 16 Chief Primrose dated January 29, 2004) 17 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: There's both 18 the MOU and there's a Band Council Resolution, 19 there's two documents. 20 MR. GREWAR: Thank you. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn. 22 23 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 10:45 A.M. AND 24 RECONVENED AT 10:56 A.M.) 25 06999 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, I 2 call upon Mr. Frank Turner to come forward to make 3 his presentation on behalf of Swampy Cree Tribal 4 Council, please. Mr. Grewar. 5 MR. GREWAR: Gentlemen, I wonder if I 6 could ask each of you to state your names for the 7 record, please? 8 MR. TURNER: My name is Frank Turner. 9 CHIEF BIGHETTY: Chief Pascall 10 Bighetty Mathias Colomb Pukatawagan. 11 MR. GREWAR: Gentlemen, are you aware 12 that in Manitoba, it is an offence to knowingly 13 mislead this Commission? 14 CHIEF BIGHETTY: Yes. 15 MR. GREWAR: Knowing that, do you 16 promise to tell just the truth in proceedings 17 before this Commission? 18 CHIEF BIGHETTY: Yes. 19 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sirs. 20 (FRANK TURNER: SWORN) 21 (CHIEF PASCALL BIGHETTY: SWORN) 22 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed. 23 MR. TURNER: (Cree spoken) Ladies and 24 gentlemen, I'd like to express my appreciation to 25 the Clean Environment Commission. My name is 07000 1 Frank Turner and I am originally from Grand 2 Rapids, Manitoba. I moved over to become a member 3 at Chemawawin Cree Nation and I now work with 4 Swampy Cree Tribal Council out at The Pas. 5 Thank you for arranging the time for 6 me to do a presentation on behalf of Swampy Cree 7 Tribal Council regarding the Wuskwatim Generating 8 Station Project. With me, I have Chief Pascall 9 Bighetty. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you spell that 11 for the clerk and the record. 12 MR. TURNER: What I've just said? 13 THE CHAIRMAN: No, the name of your 14 colleague. 15 MR. ABRA: Mr. Bighetty's name, how do 16 you spell it. 17 CHIEF BIGHETTY: P-a-s-c-a-l-l, 18 B-i-g-h-e-t-t-y. 19 MR. ABRA: Thank you. 20 MR. TURNER: I thought you were going 21 to ask me to spell everything I've just said. 22 The Swampy Cree Tribal Council is 23 composed of eight First Nations representing 24 approximately 13,000 people. Our member First 25 Nations include the Marcel Colomb First Nation, 07001 1 Mathias Colomb Cree Nation, Opaskwayak Cree 2 Nation, Mosakahiken Cree Nation, Chemawawin Cree 3 Nation and Grand Rapids First Nation, Sapotaweyak 4 Cree Nation and Wuskwi Sipihk First Nation. 5 Our members of our tribal council have 6 worked hard to improve the lives of the larger 7 membership. We have faced many obstacles and 8 frustrations along the way, many of these 9 obstacles and frustrations put in place by Canada, 10 Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro. The Swampy Cree 11 Tribal Council members are no strangers to 12 hydroelectric development. 13 With the development of the Grand 14 Rapids Generating Station, significant effects 15 were felt by some of our members such as Grand 16 Rapids, Mosakahiken, Opaskwayak and Chemawawin 17 Cree Nation. With the development of the Laurie 18 River Generating Stations, those impacts were felt 19 by the Mathias Colomb Cree Nation and the Marcel 20 Colomb Cree Nation. The development of the 21 transmission lines have caused impacts which have 22 been felt by our members, most notably the Grand 23 Rapids First Nation who lives with the impacts of 24 Bipoles I and II which cross their reserve lands. 25 While we recognize that settlement 07002 1 agreements for some of these matters were entered 2 into with Manitoba Hydro, these settlements were 3 limited in scope and were not offered the same 4 provisions and options to which have been extended 5 to other First Nations in the north who are 6 subject to Hydro developments. The clauses 7 dealing with future development by some of the 8 northern flood nations were never extended to our 9 First Nations. This was unfair in our eyes and 10 deprives us from being able to engage in these 11 same types of economic development that other 12 First Nations are able to. 13 The Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation and 14 Manitoba Hydro entered into an Agreement in 15 Principle on September 25th, 2001. That Agreement 16 in Principle deals with the building of the 17 Wuskwatim and Notigi projects. The fact that 18 Manitoba Hydro is prepared to enter into 19 negotiations with NCN flows directly out of that 20 agreement, 1996 Comprehensive Implementation 21 Agreement. Manitoba Hydro is now prepared to 22 offer a limited equity interest to NCN as a result 23 of these agreements and the provisions contained 24 within them. 25 Even though our member First Nations 07003 1 have been affected by hydroelectric development in 2 our territories, no such option is being offered 3 to our communities. We certainly don't begrudge 4 the opportunity being offered to NCN. We do note, 5 however, that the transmission line being prepared 6 for the Wuskwatim Project will have impact on some 7 of our First Nations. We note that it will run 8 from Wuskwatim to Rall's Island Station located 9 outside of The Pas. 10 Just further to that, that station 11 that you talk about at Rall's Island, I live about 12 50 feet away from that line and it's a constant 13 humming sound when you live right underneath the 14 power line. That's where my house is right now. 15 At the minimum, there will be impacts 16 on both the Mosakahiken Cree Nation, I believe you 17 heard from them yesterday, and Opaskwayak Cree 18 Nation traditional territories. Yet no offer has 19 been extended to those Swampy Cree members or 20 other Swampy Cree members to participate in the 21 benefits of this project. 22 We now hear talk of the development of 23 a new Bipole III. Recently we have heard that the 24 options of extending Bipole III down through the 25 Interlake along the west side of the Province of 07004 1 Manitoba are being considered. If such options 2 are pursued, they will have a direct impact on the 3 Swampy Cree Tribal Council members. And yet there 4 is no consultation with our members and certainly 5 no offers of how they can benefit from these 6 projects. 7 We hear all the talk about training, 8 employment and business opportunities. We doubt 9 that any of these opportunities will be extended 10 to the Swampy Cree Tribal Council and that they 11 will all stay within the NCN membership. We also 12 hear that Manitoba Hydro states that they will 13 make contracts subject to the Northern Purchasing 14 Policy. However, we understand that preferential 15 treatment will be given to NCN and we do not 16 believe that Hydro will adequately implement their 17 Northern Purchasing Policy to the benefit of the 18 First Nation members. 19 We view that this is unfair that one 20 First Nation is given the opportunity to benefit 21 and many are ignored and given no opportunity to 22 pursue economic development. This all flies in 23 the face of the fact that other First Nations, 24 including Swampy Cree Tribal Council, have all 25 suffered the effects of hydroelectric development 07005 1 in the north. 2 In many cases, Swampy Cree Tribal Council members 3 were suffering longer from the effects of Hydro 4 development than any other First Nation. 5 You may think at this time, I'd like to 6 maybe clarify, you may think I'm picking on NCN but 7 as I was studying the Agreement in Principle, that's 8 exactly what it says. So I'm not picking on any, 9 that NCN is the only beneficiaries. It's in the 10 Agreement of Principle that they will. 11 It is the position of Swampy Cree Tribal 12 Council that recommendations from the Clean 13 Environment Commission must go forward where it 14 reflects this inequity and provide a resolution to 15 it. As such, the Swampy Cree Tribal Council would 16 like the following two recommendations to be included 17 in any final report of the Clean Environment 18 Commission. 19 Number one, other First Nations be 20 allowed to participate in the equity position of 21 Wuskwatim Generating Station and any other future 22 projects. At present, NCN is able to acquire 33 per 23 cent interest on the project. Other First Nations 24 must be allowed to participate in the investment in 25 this project. This would provide a greater 07006 1 opportunity for other First Nations and spread the 2 training, employment and business opportunities over 3 a wider area in the north rather than concentrating 4 it all in one community. Our member First Nations 5 are prepared to discuss investing in the projects but 6 have been prohibited from doing so to date. 7 With that, I would just like to mention 8 that in the Agreement in Principle, the amount of 9 money that's going to be invested and also a loan 10 from Manitoba Hydro to that community. There is 11 still two-thirds that might be available from the 12 Manitoba Hydro side that we would like to be 13 participants of, even with another one-third from the 14 Manitoba Hydro side and we become all owners of that 15 project. I think that would go a long way. 16 We have great concerns over the impact of 17 the transmission line running through our 18 territories. We believe that inadequate 19 environmental assessment has been done as well as 20 inadequate protection measures. We are concerned 21 over the impact regarding trappers as well as those 22 who rely upon wildlife for subsistence. Those 23 trappers will require compensation which must be 24 provided to them quickly and with a minimum of red 25 tape and bureaucracy. 07007 1 What I talk about there took over just 2 about 40 years for Chemawawin Cree Nation to sign an 3 agreement with Manitoba and Hydro. And if you 4 listened to the news last night, the Nunavut people 5 finally signed an agreement after 30 years of 6 negotiating. Why does it have to take that long? 7 Adequate protection must be given to the 8 environment in the development of this project, in 9 particular the transmission lines running through the 10 Swampy Cree Tribal Council area. 11 At this time, Mr. Chair, I would like to 12 thank you for giving me the opportunity to do this 13 presentation. I must state for the record, however, 14 that the benefits of the Wuskwatim Project must be 15 felt by a wider group of people and cannot be 16 restricted to only one community. I would ask that 17 you include these recommendations in your final 18 report. 19 And with that, if Chief Bighetty can be 20 given a few minutes to further comment? 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, you may do so. 22 CHIEF BIGHETTY: Thank you. Before I 23 make my comments and presentation, I just would like 24 to, you know, tell you that our community in Puk has 25 been involved, experience in Hydro development since, 07008 1 I wasn't born in 1926 but that was when we started 2 feeling the effects of Hydro development. 3 MR. MAYER: Mr. Sinclair told us that 4 yesterday. 5 CHIEF BIGHETTY: Yeah. Well, anyway, I 6 also have personal experience in Hydro development. 7 Because while I was, you know, negotiating and at the 8 same time going to school, I was able to visit other 9 parts of the country that were affected by Hydro 10 development. And I was able to, you know, meet with 11 the First Peoples in the Island of Hokuto in Japan 12 who were first people who were protesting on Hydro 13 development. I've also met the First Nations in New 14 Zealand, Australia and I went to Ukraine. And I have 15 made a -- and I spoke in one of the Indigenous 16 conferences in Geneva. And this is with respect to 17 development of Hydro. And going back, I am also a 18 university graduate and I went to school. 19 And in my brief submission is that in 20 1926, our community has been compounded by Hydro 21 development first from Saskatchewan and then from 22 Manitoba. 23 Puk is situated 25 miles downstream from 24 Churchill River and we are not -- we were not -- in 25 the history, we were never consulted about the 07009 1 impacts of Island Falls which was built by a South 2 African company mining company and Hudson Bay Mining 3 and Smelting in Flin Flon, Manitoba. But their 4 licence expired in 1981. 5 And then we have the Sask Power that has 6 been operating and manipulating the waters without a 7 licence. And I'm sure that you've heard about that. 8 And our Elders were told that if the Island Falls was 9 built, that there would be no damages then. And this 10 year, you know, well, within the years to come, like 11 we've lost between 12 to 15 feet of water. 12 And our people used to depend on the 13 sturgeon population. And I would like to quote a 14 diary written by our father Emil Desarmo (ph) in 15 1926. According to his diary, he said that I could 16 not use my water kicker, meaning the outboard motor, 17 because we hit too many sturgeon. We had to paddle 18 to Pukatawagan. The last sturgeon that I seen in 19 Pukatawagan, it was in 1979. 20 And it was Peter Sinclair who killed that 21 last sturgeon, was responsible for killing the last 22 sturgeon. 23 And well, we now have another Hydro dam 24 that will be affecting our livelihood in Pukatawagan. 25 We're not even consulted. We're not even mentioned 07010 1 that Puk exists. But Burntwood River flows from 2 Burntwood Lake into Rat and eventually into 3 Wuskwatim. 4 And I did ask Hydro and he says, oh, it's 5 not going to affect you at all. Well, that Burntwood 6 Lake is known as (CREE SPOKEN) meaning Burntwood. 7 Exactly like I said. For centuries at Burntwood, we 8 have villages there and we have cemetaries there 9 which we are concerned. And the Indian Band of 10 Mathias Colomb I guess will be requesting further 11 involvement because it will affect, you know, our 12 river, our lake there in Burntwood. And when I did 13 ask Hydro, oh, it's not going to even affect one 14 inch. 15 I don't want to make derogatory marks 16 about presenters, I have also read in the I think 17 it's the Grass Roots News about the Metis Nation, you 18 know, speaking that will affect Metis land. I really 19 don't like to say this but they really have no 20 business because it is a -- if it's going to affect 21 anybody, it's going to be the First Nations first of 22 the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. 23 But in my view, in my view, in my 24 personal view, the Hydro development will be 25 constructed in any event, you know, whether the 07011 1 Aboriginal people agree or not. Because this is -- 2 it's like standing in a railroad track to try and 3 stop a train. Because we're talking about a major 4 development. 5 And I think the environment here, it's 6 just like it's only a trade show, it's only a show. 7 Hydro is going to build anyway whether we like it or 8 not. 9 I also was present in one of the meetings 10 in the seventies when they built that Missi Falls 11 which has affected our water level upstream in 12 Pukatawagan. And then Hydro I hear said that it will 13 not affect South Indian Lake. It will not affect 14 anything now. But at that time, South Indian Lake -- 15 I have relatives there. My mother was from there. 16 And it is why I am sympathetic because I think we 17 were told in one of the meetings that it would not 18 affect South Indian Lake. 19 Now they are thinking about this year 20 because it was a really whitefish lake. This year I 21 hear that they are thinking about closing the 22 whitefish populations because there's no whitefish. 23 And yet they were told that it would not affect South 24 Indian Lake. And we are told again now that in 25 Burntwood, it will not affect Burntwood River at all. 07012 1 And it is with the concern that Mathias 2 Colomb will be affected. We know that. But in the 3 eyes of the environmental group or in any -- or any 4 pro-Hydro telling us that it will not affect, but I 5 know that in maybe 20, 30, 40 years from now, long 6 after we are gone here, it will affect the 7 populations of the fish and it will affect the 8 people's lives. 9 And when I was told that since the 10 project is going to go through, I know it will go 11 through, that our one little very small community, 12 Pukatawagan, do support the Nelson House -- do 13 support the project. We can oppose the project as I 14 had said but at least, when it goes through, that one 15 nation or a few nations will benefit. And I am not 16 here to, you know, to oppose to what one of our 17 nations will benefit. 18 There will be a few muskrats, there will 19 be a few more beaver, there will be probably no fish 20 in the future. But that form of our dependency, our 21 northern dependency is history anyway. My family, my 22 children don't know how to trap or fish. 23 And if we look towards the future, I 24 guess that, you know, the only way is to go into 25 partnerships, you know, with development. And that 07013 1 it's so hard for me, you know, to be able to tell you 2 that I don't have any concerns. Of course I have 3 concerns. But at least in this project, and at least 4 in this project that our First Nations is going to 5 benefit. And I do, again for the record, for Mathias 6 Colomb, I do support the Nelson House Cree Nation and 7 their endeavours to go into partnership with Hydro 8 development there. I thank you. Thanks. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Questions. 10 Mr. Mayer? 11 MR. MAYER: Mr. Turner, in your 12 recommendation number 2, you have indicated concerns 13 about the transmission line running through the 14 territories. Firstly, have you had an opportunity to 15 read the Environmental Impact Statement insofar as it 16 deals with the route selection from Herblet Lake into 17 Rall's Island? 18 MR. TURNER: Yes, I have read some of it. 19 And what I don't like in what I'm reading there that 20 Nisichawayasihk's compensation on the trappers is 21 only during the construction phase of the 22 transmission line it says. And like I have told you, 23 I live under a transmission line right now, and 24 animals are better listeners than us human beings. 25 They have better hearing than us. So once they are 07014 1 gone from that line, they will be gone. There's no 2 coming back. 3 MR. MAYER: I understand your concern 4 about noise and we have had some evidence on that 5 issue and on whatever else emanates from transmission 6 lines, but we are told firstly that the transmission 7 line, that there was fairly significant consultation 8 about the route for that transmission line. And in 9 fact, it follows, except for a brief period or brief 10 length of it, it follows already existing corridors. 11 And we were told that the one place that it seems to 12 vary from the corridor was that particular variation 13 was made at the request of Cormorant. Are you aware 14 of that? 15 MR. TURNER: No, I'm not aware. I cannot 16 speak on behalf of Cormorant. 17 MR. MAYER: I understand. I was asking 18 if you were aware that in fact that is how that 19 variation took place. 20 We are also informed, and I assume you 21 are aware of this, that the last portion of the 22 transmission line will in fact be strung on already 23 existing transmission towers. The last portion of it 24 into Rall's Island will be strung over already 25 existing towers. 07015 1 MR. TURNER: Yes. I think -- I think 2 those transmission lines were done without any 3 consultation, without any First Nation involvement. 4 Those transmission lines were done without proper 5 consultation or without any consultations with 6 affected members at that time. So it's there. 7 But now I think you have an opportunity 8 to make things right on this new line that's going to 9 come through. And I think it's something that's 10 really needed within, especially it's coming through 11 the Moose Lake traditional territory as well, the 12 trappers in that area, and also the two trapping 13 blocks right at OCN. That's going to be greatly 14 affected by it. 15 So I think, you know, because of, you 16 know, what happened in the late 1950s and the early 17 1960s will never happen again. When -- 18 MR. MAYER: Hopefully it won't. 19 MR. TURNER: When I was a young boy 20 looking at the barges coming into the Saskatchewan 21 River and started unloading some equipment and 22 started blocking one big area where the Hydro dam is 23 now, you know, nobody knew, even as a kid I did not 24 know what was going on there. And the affects it 25 had, the people that it killed on that basin, on the 07016 1 reservoir site. A lot of sticks were floating around 2 and people hitting it and drowned. A lot of my 3 relatives. 4 MR. MAYER: We heard a very good and 5 comprehensive description of that from John Morriseau 6 in Winnipeg about how Hydro came in to Grand Rapids. 7 MR. TURNER: John Morrisseau was not from 8 Grand Rapids, I was from Grand Rapids. 9 MR. MAYER: I understand that. He made 10 that very clear, too. I suppose my only other 11 question is do you agree that if you are going to 12 have a power line, and of course there's not much 13 sense having a dam if you aren't going to take the 14 power somewhere, that your people would be better off 15 with Hydro using existing corridors like the 16 railroad, existing power lines, and to some extent, 17 existing roadways rather than putting it through 18 virgin timber? 19 MR. TURNER: I don't have any -- like the 20 Chief said, you know, the project is going to go 21 ahead regardless. And it's just a matter of 22 formality what we're doing here. 23 MR. MAYER: We hope it's more than that. 24 MR. TURNER: Well, I'm hoping the same 25 thing that you're saying. But you know, I think 07017 1 providing that there is some benefit, I think all the 2 First Nations are asking for is a benefit from the 3 existing -- the project that's coming up. They want 4 a benefit from this as well. 5 Like I said, 1950s and 1960s are all 6 gone. We will never let that happen again. And you 7 said also there's no point of building a dam if you 8 don't have a power line. And that's true also 9 because it's coming right smack through Treaty 5 10 territory, either way. 11 MR. MAYER: Thank you, Mr. Turner. I 12 have no further questions, Mr. Chair. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Further questions? 14 MR. TURNER: I guess with that, Mr. 15 Chairman. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm just verifying to see 17 if I saw any questions coming. Mr. Spence I think is 18 waving a flag there. 19 MR. SPENCE: I just have one question. 20 My name is Wellington Spence by the way. I guess you 21 people know me here now. When you're talking about 22 the power line, transmission line going through your 23 territory and you were saying that you want some kind 24 of compensation for the trapper, trapline areas, and 25 I hope you don't pick on just one trapper like they 07018 1 did before and pick one guy, hey. I hope all the 2 people that pay the licence on that trapline get some 3 kind of a compensation. And I want to be fair 4 because, you know, the other trapper pays the 5 licence, hey. That will only be very fair if that 6 happens, all the trappers in one area that trap there 7 to get the same compensation. And try not to 8 underpay the Hydro, I hope they don't underpay. Give 9 you a few dollars and call it square, hey. And it 10 should be set, you get that every year as long as 11 that transmission line is there, until they take it 12 down and put the trees back in place. That I'd like 13 to thank you. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I think you 15 didn't get a question, you got some free legal 16 advice. 17 MR. TURNER: Maybe if I can just make a 18 comment. I may have misunderstood the Nelson House 19 trappers of during the construction phase only. It's 20 what I read in that presentation that they had in The 21 Pas. That trappers will be compensated during the 22 construction phase of that transmission line is what 23 it said. So to me, that's just a one time thing 24 during the construction phase. Nothing after that. 25 (CREE SPOKEN) 07019 1 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 4 enter the presentation of the Swampy Cree Tribal 5 Council as OTH-1037. 6 7 (EXHIBIT OTH-1037: Presentation to Clean 8 Environment Commission, Wuskwatim 9 Hearings by Frank Turner, Executive 10 Director Swampy Cree Tribal Council 11 May 28, 2004) 12 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. 14 Turner, Chief. I now call upon the person or persons 15 who are making the presentation on behalf of the 16 Winnipeg, Manitoba Chambers of commerce. 17 MR. GREWAR: The gentlemen that are 18 coming forward are Dave Angus and I believe Graham 19 Starmer. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar. 21 MR. GREWAR: Gentlemen, I wonder if I 22 could ask you each to state your name for the record, 23 please? 24 MR. STARMER: Graham Starmer. 25 MR. ANGUS: Dave Angus. 07020 1 MR. GREWAR: Gentlemen, are you aware 2 that in Manitoba, it is an offence to knowingly 3 mislead this Commission? 4 MR. STARMER: Yes. 5 MR. ANGUS: Yes. 6 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise, knowing 7 that, to tell only the truth in proceedings before 8 this Commission? 9 MR. STARMER: Yes. 10 MR. ANGUS: Yes. 11 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sirs. 12 13 (GRAHAM STARMER: SWORN) 14 (DAVE ANGUS: SWORN) 15 16 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed. 17 MR. STARMER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The 18 Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce and the Manitoba 19 Chambers of Commerce are pleased to be given the 20 opportunity to voice our opinion at the Clean 21 Environment Commission hearings into the proposed 22 Wuskwatim Dam. 23 First I would like to provide some 24 background so the Commission has an understanding of 25 the mandate of the Chambers of Commerce in Manitoba. 07021 1 The mission of the Chambers of Commerce 2 is to foster an environment in which Manitoba 3 business can prosper. We are the largest 4 cross-sectoral organization in the Province 5 representing over 10,000 businesses. Our vision for 6 Manitoba is that this province become a 7 cost-competitive technology innovative province with 8 a skilled labour force and a modern infrastructure to 9 support existing and emerging industries. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Not too fast, sir, so the 11 clerk can capture all of this. Thank you. 12 MR. STARMER: Looking solely at this 13 project and how it fits both our mandate and our 14 vision, the Chambers of Commerce make the following 15 comments. 16 Economic impact. The Chambers of 17 Commerce's main rationale in determining the value of 18 Wuskwatim project is the economic impact it will have 19 on both the province and the City of Winnipeg. 20 We have used the following criteria in an 21 effort to determine the economic impact. Educating 22 skilled labour, export market, spin-offs, stimulate 23 economic development through the province, throughout 24 the province. 25 And we've borne in mind that Wuskwatim is 07022 1 only one piece of the long-term expansion plan that 2 Hydro has in the north. 3 Educating skilled labour. The Chambers 4 of Commerce sees economic benefit in the construction 5 of Wuskwatim Dam when it comes to employment 6 opportunities as well as training and business 7 opportunities that would exist with a project of this 8 scope. 9 A key component of Wuskwatim project is 10 the opportunities that exists for education and job 11 training. Ensuring we have a skilled labour force is 12 a key for growing the province. 13 According to Manitoba Hydro, 800 or more 14 people are expected to participate in a $10 million 15 pre-project training initiative. Manitoba Hydro has 16 indicated that the funding for this training 17 initiative will focus on high-skilled areas such as 18 preparing qualified trades people. This training 19 will have benefits long after the project has been 20 completed. 21 Training plans are to be developed in 22 consultation with Manitoba Hydro and First Nations 23 which we applaud. 24 The Provincial Government has indicated 25 that they will work closely with Manitoba Hydro to 07023 1 ensure that training efforts effectively match the 2 job opportunities that will be generated by the 3 proposed Hydro developments. Increasing the skills 4 of our labour force meets the vision of the Chambers 5 of Commerce. 6 Export market. The Chambers of Commerce 7 also see the benefits of construction of the 8 Wuskwatim Dam as it relates to increasing export 9 markets for Manitoba Hydro. Currently, Manitoba 10 Hydro has nine formal long-term export agreements 11 with six electric utilities and numerous short-term 12 agreements with more than 30 electric utilities and 13 marketers in mid-western United States, Ontario and 14 Saskatchewan. 15 Manitoba and Minnesota have developed a 16 long-term relationship, as they have been trading 17 energy since 1970. Manitoba Hydro has electricity 18 trading partnerships with several significant 19 Minnesota utilities including Xcel Energy, Northern 20 States Power, Minnesota Power, Great River Energy, 21 Otter Tail Power Company and Minnkota Power 22 Cooperative. 23 The benefits of increased exports include 24 rate reduction. Electric utilities are able to use 25 export revenues to reduce their revenue requirements 07024 1 which, in turn, reduces rate increase requirements 2 and lower the costs to domestic users. 3 Surplus energy sales from renewable 4 energy source to utilize energy from renewable 5 resources such as hydro power that would otherwise be 6 wasted. 7 Economic interchange. The interchange of 8 electricity between utilities which results in 9 reduction of production costs. 10 Seasonal diversity exchange. The ability 11 for utilities with different seasonal demands for 12 energy to share generation and realize economic 13 benefits. 14 Reserve sharing. Agreements with mutual 15 generation support so that the need for new power 16 plants are decreased and deferred and coordination of 17 planning and operation. Cooperation between 18 utilities, mainly in the generation facility 19 planning, operations and maintenance to reduce 20 investment requirements and distribute maintenance 21 outages so that system operations are optimized. 22 Export power aids neighbouring utilities 23 in times of emergency to the extent of such exports 24 will not jeopardize service to customers in Manitoba 25 and import power from neighbouring utilities in times 07025 1 of emergency to maintain necessary services to 2 consumers in Manitoba. 3 The Chambers of Commerce thinks it's a 4 positive sign that a long-term agreement with 5 are also optimistic that Manitoba and Ontario, which 6 are in negotiations for a multi-billion dollar power 7 sale, will be able to come to an agreement. 8 According to recent media reports, 9 Manitoba Energy Minister, Tim Sale, expects Ontario 10 to announce the creation of a new power planning 11 agency within a month. The new agency would take a 12 lead in finding new sources of energy for Canada's 13 largest economy. 14 Sale has also said that once the new 15 Ontario agency is fully functional, Manitoba Hydro 16 officials have estimated that it would take up to 17 nine months to complete a power sale between the two 18 provinces. 19 A recent report on Ontario's future 20 energy needs completed earlier this year shows that 21 Canada's largest province will need between 17,000 22 and 25,000 megawatts of electricity by 2016. 23 This estimate is based on a number of 24 challenges Ontario will face in the next few years 25 including losses of 15,000 megawatts of generating 07026 1 capacity from the retirement of Ontario's aging coal 2 and nuclear generating stations. In addition, 3 Ontario is experiencing growth in peak demand of more 4 than 500 megawatts each year. 5 In a perfect world, the Chambers of 6 Commerce would like to see a signed contract already 7 in place for additional power generated by Manitoba 8 Hydro but also understands that you have to look at 9 the track record of Manitoba Hydro when it comes to 10 export opportunities. 11 Spin-offs. A project the scope of 12 Wuskwatim Dam will have the ability to create 13 opportunities for new and existing businesses to 14 develop contracts to supply products and services 15 needed for the project. This will provide 16 entrepreneurs with the added incentive to meet those 17 demands and, in the process, expand their businesses 18 and create new jobs. Manitoba environmental and 19 engineering companies have benefitted from past 20 projects as they are now recognized as experts in 21 major dam construction. 22 With a project of this size and the 23 length of time it will take, the spin-offs are 24 endless with a number of northern communities such as 25 Nelson House and Thompson. 07027 1 Spin-offs will be realized in the 2 hospitality industry, the retail industry and the 3 tourism industry, stimulate economic development 4 throughout the province. We realize of course that 5 this project is small in size in the Hydro system; 6 however, Manitoba Hydro employs more than 4,000 7 people throughout the province. Approximately 565 8 employees are located in Northern Manitoba where the 9 large majority of hydroelectric energy is produced. 10 Hydro developments have played a major role in the 11 development of northern and overall provincial 12 economies. 13 With Wuskwatim project expected to take 14 six years to complete and approximately 7,700 person 15 years of direct and indirect construction employment 16 to be created, there is a huge benefit to be 17 realized. A project of this size will create years 18 of employment for trades people and construction 19 companies throughout the province. The taxes that 20 are paid by these employees and companies will help 21 to provide Manitobans with the services they desire. 22 A project of this scope will inject billions of 23 dollars into the local economy and have an impact on 24 the entire province. 25 The Chambers of Commerce are confident 07028 1 that a project such as Wuskwatim will help businesses 2 to prosper in Manitoba. 3 Competitive rates. Another advantage 4 that Manitoba Hydro is able to provide to Manitobans 5 is the low cost of electricity rates. The Chambers 6 of Commerce view this as an extremely positive 7 advantage. In fact, Manitoba Hydro's financial 8 objective is to provide Manitobans with electricity 9 at the lowest cost possible. 10 When compared with residents of other 11 provinces and jurisdictions, Manitoba Hydro has 12 consistently been able to provide residents and 13 businesses with some of the lowest electricity rates 14 in North America. We would anticipate that the 15 construction of the Wuskwatim Generating Dam would 16 have no adverse effect on the low electricity rates 17 that Manitobans currently enjoy. 18 The Chambers of Commerce believe that the 19 low cost of electricity should be used as an 20 incentive to attract high power using companies to 21 the province. 22 Having the lowest rates is one way the 23 environment can be created that will allow businesses 24 to prosper in Manitoba. 25 Concerns. The Chambers of Commerce does 07029 1 have some concerns with Manitoba Hydro. These 2 concerns, however, deal more with the public policy 3 surrounding Manitoba Hydro and not the circumstances 4 surrounding the Wuskwatim Dam. We would, however, 5 like to ensure these concerns are on the record at 6 this time. 7 The Chambers of Commerce believe that 8 Manitoba Hydro should not be the sole economic driver 9 in this province, it should be a larger plan. There 10 is a need for the current government to outline an 11 economic plan for the future. 12 An overall plan that includes Manitoba 13 Hydro is much preferred to a plan that relies solely 14 on Manitoba Hydro to stimulate the economy. 15 We also have some concerns about the 16 long-term situation at Manitoba Hydro. Over the last 17 couple of years, we've seen the debt equity ratio 18 head in the wrong direction. We also have concerns 19 regarding the fact that the debt of Manitoba Hydro 20 has continued to grow since the present government 21 took office. Manitoba Hydro was placed in a 22 difficult position two years ago when the government 23 decided to take $200 million dividend to balance 24 their books. 25 Low water levels have also had a dramatic 07030 1 impact on the bottom line of Manitoba Hydro as recent 2 projects estimate the Crown Corporation will lose 3 millions of dollars this year. 4 In conclusion, the Chambers of Commerce 5 believe there are economic benefits to the Province 6 of Manitoba with the construction of Wuskwatim Dam. 7 We have judged this project solely on whether it 8 fulfills the mandate of the Manitoba Chambers of 9 Commerce. 10 We will leave others more qualified to 11 address to the Commission on the environmental impact 12 of this project. 13 Following the criteria that we have set 14 out and the details and understanding we currently 15 have of the project, the Chambers of Commerce are 16 supportive for the project moving ahead. 17 Mr. Angus on my right here will answer 18 any of your questions. 19 MR. GREWAR: If we might enter as exhibit 20 OTH-1038, the presentation by the Winnipeg Chamber of 21 Commerce and Manitoba Chambers of Commerce, OTH-1038. 22 23 (EXHIBIT OTH-1038: Presentation by 24 Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce and Manitoba 25 Chambers of Commerce to the Manitoba 07031 1 Clean Environment Commission Wuskwatim 2 Generation and Transmission Project) 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: I note that this 5 presentation indicates at the very end that you leave 6 to others better qualified to address the issue of 7 environmental impacts. But by the same token, you 8 don't state whether this is one of the concerns or 9 one of the issues that you hope that others will 10 address in a manner that takes into consideration 11 your own interests in the environment. I presume 12 that is understood but I'd like to hear you say it. 13 MR. ANGUS: Well then let me say it. 14 Absolutely, we respect this process. And on any type 15 of project of this magnitude, the environmental 16 impacts have to be assessed. The input from 17 communities that are affected must be heard. So we 18 absolutely support this particular process. 19 And that discussion needs to continue 20 and decisions need to be made. We need to, as 21 Chambers, need to choose, when it comes to this 22 particular hearing, what our role is. And our role 23 is to make sure that we don't lose sight of the 24 economic impacts that a project of this magnitude 25 will have, not only to rural communities and to First 07032 1 Nations communities but also to the City of Winnipeg. 2 And that's why I am here. Related to some of the 3 spin-off economic benefits, the training 4 opportunities that will be created. In fact, a 5 potential model for how training can be enhanced for 6 this type of project. 7 So certainly we did not focus on the 8 environmental piece in this but it's not lost on us, 9 the importance of that assessment. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it the view of the 11 Manitoba Chambers of Commerce that there is a tie-in 12 between the economic development and the environment? 13 MR. ANGUS: Well, first of all, we 14 believe in sustainable development and -- 15 THE CHAIRMAN: That was going to be my 16 next question. 17 MR. ANGUS: And to me, that is the tie. 18 And we have had -- you know, at the Winnipeg Chamber, 19 we have had, in previous years, a Sustainable 20 Development Committee. And we had done that because 21 we recognize the business community needs to play a 22 large role in advocating for sustainable practices. 23 In fact, next week, we have a speaker 24 coming in talking about triple bottom line 25 accounting, what companies are currently looking at, 07033 1 assessing their organizations not only in terms of 2 their financial bottom line but also their 3 environmental and social bottom lines as well. In 4 fact, there's been many cases where an enhanced 5 environmental bottom line has led to better financial 6 results. 7 In Winnipeg, we have created a cluster of 8 environmental industries that will continue to 9 support the creation of new technologies around 10 looking after the environment. 11 Manitoba Hydro, in terms of its product, 12 is clean energy and certainly is something that, you 13 know, based on demands and commitments to Kyoto, 14 something that needs to be pursued nationally. And 15 we can play a lead role on that here in Manitoba. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ms. Avery 17 Kinew. 18 MS. AVERY KINEW: Good day, sirs, I 19 appreciate you coming. I'm wondering if you have a 20 particular policy. You used to have a Committee on 21 Sustainable Development but don't now. Do you have a 22 policy, either the Manitoba or Winnipeg Chamber, on 23 the environment and the economy? 24 MR. ANGUS: I don't believe that we have 25 kind of an overriding policy related to that. We've 07034 1 taken specific policy positions when issues have come 2 up. And again, we haven't -- we're really not in a 3 position to take a policy position related to this 4 specific project and its environmental impact. I 5 mean that's the role of you, of this body. And so 6 we've chosen to play a role as it relates to the 7 economic impact of the project itself. 8 But we do have a history of different 9 environmental policies that have been created through 10 the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce and I think many of 11 them have gone through to the Manitoba Chamber as 12 well. 13 MR. STARMER: We were also very much 14 involved with the Provincial Government committees 15 looking at the water issue in Manitoba. So our 16 committees have been very active in the environmental 17 area as far as trying to ensure that Manitoba 18 maintains clean water and some of the other policies 19 related to planning. So Dave is quite right in that 20 when it comes to a specific area, we're very much 21 involved. 22 MS. AVERY KINEW: So you don't have a 23 committee, you don't have a policy but you're 24 involved in a specific project basis? 25 MR. ANGUS: Actually, our format now, and 07035 1 this goes beyond just the sustainable development 2 area, is to have fewer standing committees and more 3 task forces. So around specific issues, we will pull 4 people together. 5 A good example was we pulled people 6 together to discuss the City of Winnipeg's new 7 environmental strategy that they tabled to provide 8 some input on behalf of the Chamber. We'll continue 9 to do that as environmental issues arise. 10 MS. AVERY KINEW: On the same vein, do 11 you have a task force or a policy promoting First 12 Nations employment and participation in projects, 13 equity participation we just heard about? 14 MR. ANGUS: I don't believe we have a 15 specific stated policy around that. However, having 16 said that, we do support it. At the Winnipeg 17 Chamber, we house an Aboriginal Employment Initiative 18 which is a partnership with the Business Council, 19 Department of Education and Training and Western 20 Diversification that was created four years ago to 21 promote, within the business community, having a 22 workforce that reflects the community and pursue 23 Aboriginal hiring strategies in order to, you know, 24 be more welcoming to Aboriginal people to pursue them 25 as employees. We do job fairs to try to bring them 07036 1 together. There's a number of initiatives that come 2 out of that. So we've been hugely active on the 3 Aboriginal employment base for sure. 4 MS. AVERY KINEW: Okay. Thank you very 5 much. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Seeing no 7 further questions, we thank you gentlemen for taking 8 the time and making this presentation. 9 MR. ANGUS: Thank you. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: We will now hear a 11 presentation from I don't know if it is one or more 12 youths, NCN youths. I'll ask them to come forward. 13 MR. GREWAR: The gentleman coming forward 14 is Willie Moore and he is representing I believe 15 what's referred to as nine youth members of 16 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We have no 18 objection for these mine youths to come forward if 19 they so wish and to come and lend their moral 20 support. So if you want to come forward, you may do 21 so. 22 You make almost as impressive a panel as 23 Hydro/NCN when they are sitting there. I've heard my 24 colleagues around me say even more attractive. 25 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, I suppose we 07037 1 should have each at least provide their names. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct. 3 MR. GREWAR: Could you each state your 4 name for the record, please. 5 MR. MOORE: Willie Moore. 6 MS. LINKLATER: Shawna Linklater. 7 MR. BUNN: Dennis Bunn. 8 MS. SPENCE: Geraldine Spence. 9 MS. MCDONALD: Faith McDonald. 10 MS. YETMAN: Tiffany Y